[Avodah] Consistency in8 Workarounds?

[Rich, Joel]

On 31/05/18 09:25, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
>> In the discussion of the beer brouhaha (distributor is Jewish and owns 
>> beer over pesach), one source quoted is S'A C"M 99:7, which deals with a 
>> case where Reuvain signs over his assets to a third party, borrows 
>> money, but continues his business as if nothing happened. The Beit Din 
>> is to look through the sign over if the lender comes to collect and 
>> Reuvain claims insolvency.
>> Do you think it's a slam dunk that one could parallel this to selling an 
>> ongoing business for Pesach?

[Zev Sero:]
> Not at all, for two separate reasons.

> First, there is no parallel at all between giving away all of ones 
> property, in which case why would one still be using it, and selling a 
> going concern, where obviously one does and is expected to stay and 
> continue working for the business, and the business does and is expected 
> to continue as usual, with no difference perceptible to the customers. 

AIUI there was no change in the business other than the 'titular" ownership

> Second, that entire siman is about bet din not allowing people to get 
> away with fraud, by rolling back transactions that were transparently 
> made in order to defraud someone.  In this se'if, the entire purpose of 
> the "gift" was to defraud subsequent lenders, who were not to know that 
> the "donor" no longer had any assets, and lent on the assumption that he 
> still owned what he was publicly known to own.  So in the name of equity 
> the BD treats the transaction as never having happened.    See the 
> Mechaber's opinion at the end of se'if 2, where it's very clear that 
> he's concerned about what's fair, not what's technically correct.   So 
> none of this has any relevance to Hilchos Pesach, where "equity" is not 
> an issue; Hashem is not being "cheated".  He commanded us not to own 
> chametz, and He gave us a choshen mishpat to determine who owns what, 
> and He certainly knows about all our transactions, so if we follow that 
> CM and dispose of our chametz there's no "fraud" and no need for a BD to 
> "pierce" it in the name of equity.

https://headlinesbook.podbean.com/mf/download/reyy6b/headlines_6-2-18.mp3
6/2/18 Owning Businesses in Halacha and Hashkafa: People who are making
a difference- Freddy Friedman, Elchonon Schwartz, Rabbi Yosef Kushner,
Nesanel Davis, Shimon Webster, Mr. Sol Werdiger


The first half deals with a similar type of arrangement for nursing
homes-so aiui you're saying it's up to the Rabbis to evaluate the "need"
in each case to determine if haaramah is allowable?

KT
Joel Rich