[Avodah] When Bittul Chometz precedes Mechiras Chometz

[Micha Berger]

On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 6:33pm EDT, R Akiva Miller wrote:
: This is actually a very old question, usually phrased as: "If I do
: Bitul, why do I need a Bedika also?" I concede that the *main* answer
: to this is that the Bitul might not be sincere, but that is not the
: only reason.

I don't see how this works as a reason. Is an insincere declaration of
hefqeir less real than an insincere asmachta of a sales contract?

The MB's other reason (gezeira) and discussion thereof, elided.

: Some may question what I am writing in this post, and they will point
: out that Mechira is more effective than Bedika, because (as RBW wrote)
: Mechira gets rid of ALL the chometz, whereas Bedika only gets rid of
: the chometz that we found...

"Dechazisei udelo chazisei"?

...
: A better question to ask, I think, might be: If I have sold my
: chometz, why do I also need the BITUL? After all, the Mechira already
: removed ALL chometz from my possession, and there's nothing left for
: me to nullify! (Hmmmm... I wonder if that might be what RBW had
: intended to type!)

Can you sell something you didn't know you owned?


A shade over 6 days later, on Tue, Apr 24 at 7:53am EDT, RAM wrote:
: I am amazed that this discussion has gotten this far without anyone
: referencing the text of the Shtar Mechira...

: And this is a significant point, because I'm aware of at least two
: major styles of this shtar: Some rabbis simply identify each person
: who is selling their chometz. Other rabbis require that the seller
: must itemize the chometz that he is selling, to some greater or lesser
: degree of detail.

I thought there are so many versions, referencing "the text" or even "a
text" is meaningless.

I therefore viewed the issue when you raised it last week (?) morein
terms of: Does your LOR address this issue, and if so, how?

: In the former case, where each seller is selling "all" of his chometz,
: I can see a great deal of room for a discussion of whether we must
: take "all" literally, or whether we can/should figure out his actual
: intentions. And that's the situation I had in mind when I started this
: thread.

Bitul and "all my chameitz" are mutually exclusive sets. It it's hefqeir,
it's not mine. (BTW, in Israeli Aramaic the word was "hevqer", which I
kept on reading as though it was "the cattle.")

Espectially is we allow later actions as evidence of what was intent
at the time of the sale.

: But in the latter case, where the seller has listed the chometz that
: he is selling, that list surely omits "the bag that I'll be burning",
: and I imagine that there is much less wiggle room to debate other
: details...

Without "and any other chameitz which may be"?

That version would solve all your problems, but affords less protection
against issur. Since all the mechirah is belt-n-suspenders with bitul
anyway, no big deal.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 24th day, which is
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