[Avodah] R. Yhonason Eybeschutz on Secular Subjects

[Micha Berger]

On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 10:43:36PM +0300, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
: And when there is a halachic question that involves detailed knowledge of
: science the women should pasken the question

Except that it's arguable that pro forma women can't pasqen.

It means a poseiq needs to know enough to ask intelligent questions of
the expert. Even if the experts would end up being women, BTs who studied
the subject before accepting ol mitzvos, unobservant Jews or non-Jews.

Which is a good deal of knowledge, but doesn't require years of formal
education.


When I brought this thread over from Areivim to Avodah, my intent was not
to have a bunch of pro-secular education posts.

Rather, my focus was on the eilu va'eilu of saying that even though I believe
in the value of secular education, I cannot say it's the One True Derekh.

For example, the gemara only says that many tried to follow Rashbi's
Torah-only derekh and failed. Not that R Yishmael was right. But that
pragmatically, one worked for the masses and the didn't. And if the
context changes, so that the welfare state makes it possible for more
to succeed toing things Rashbi's way? The gemara says nothing against it.

Assuming they don't bankrupt the state that way or other Modern Israeli
political, governmental and economic issues, but again, that's the
balebatishe problem of the system failing. Even if it were chilul
hasheim issues (just to pre-empt that line of reasoning), that's not
about eschewing secular studies.

I would say the gemara leaves both options open.

And for today... For every kid who leaves chareidi life going OTD
because they feel hobbled by the lack of secular education, or the lack
of worldliness in general, or just plain constricted by the paucity of
their choices of how to live as adults there is a Mod-O kid who leaves
because of too much opennees, a lack of structure, an attraction to the
other lifestyles they're exposed to, a feeling that their parents are
fooling themselves with compromise...

To survive, we need all our options.


That said, I find it interesting that none of the arguments in favor of
limudei chol actually involved what I consider their real value: There
is too much we can't learn from Torah. Not that it's not there, just
that we don't know how to extract it.

Like when RALichtenstein saw the Chevra Qadisha try to rush the aveilim
at one levayah through so that they could begin another, he commented
that had they read Hamlet they never could have acted that way.

Not that such middos aren't in Torah sources, but they're more accessible
sometimes in literature.

And for all the awe one may get from the Wisdom of the Author when
learning Torah, it hits harder when you see Chokhmas haBorei in the
physical world, outside the context of "religious studies".

Also, by studying other topics one learns other modes of thought,
and becomes more able to think in other ways, reach other
conclusions. Mathemeticians, programmers and lawyers all learn a
precision of thought and attention to detail that helps in real-life
problem solving as well as learning.

Vekhulu for other displines.

In short... The value I find in limudei chol only starts with knowing
more and having more data to put into the Torah and the parnasah mills.
They change how one thinks in ways that improve both Torah and life
skills. Simply by having more tools in the toolbox.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 23rd day, which is
micha at aishdas.org        3 weeks and 2 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Gevurah sheb'Netzach: How does my domination
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            stifle others?