[Avodah] The Vilna Gaon and Secular Studies

[Micha Berger]

On Mon, Apr 09, 2018 at 02:28:06PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
: One may ignore what the GRA said,  but that does not mean that it is 
: not true.  The only way for someone to intelligently disprove with 
: what the GRA said would be for him to study secular subjects and find 
: that his learning has not improved and is not missing things...

Unless one might argue that the study warps what one learned and one's
ability to judge the quality of one's learning.

Or any of a million other things someone who disagrees with the Gra might
suggest.

A few years back there was a storm, and my son's grade school rebbe ended
up losing a son to a downed power line. The friend who tried saving the
son died immediately. The boy lingered for about 2 weeks. We attended
the levayah.

The father was proud that his young son went to his Maker pure, unsullied
even by learning the alphabet. Alef-beis, yes, the child knew; but they
hadn't yet begun the English alphabet.

Not a sentiment I would share. In fact, hearing it from a rebbe who taught
my son in a MO school, I found it kind of startling.

But it's a perspective. And if it fosters accepting ol malkhus shamayim
and ol mitzvos, raising children who are "ohavei H', yir'sei E-lokim,
anshei emes, zera qodesh..." who am I to say it's not the right answer
for someone else?

:> It may be more productive to ask about
:> 1- the veracity of the reports you are relying on
:> and
:> 2- if so, how do they understand the facts.

: Rabbi Dr. Shnayer Leiman,  who wrote the article from which the 
: quotes come...

I meant in each point something different than what your responses
reflect. To spell out further:

1- The reports that lead you to believe the norm for secular education
in chassidishe chadorim today is actually as weak as you believe. Rather
than the likelihood that the more extreme stories are the ones more
often reported. They could all fully be true, and yet not reflect the
experiences of a statistically significant number of American students. Or
perhaps they do. I would want statistics, not anecdotes, before judging.

For example, I did not notice it any easier to teach Sukkah 7b-8a
"sukkah ha'asuyah kekivshan" and the diagonal of squares vs circles or
their areas to MO Jews who weren't themselves in STEM fields than to
American chareidim. And if things were so bad, how do so many end up
"in computers", if not in a job that requires as much post-HS education
as mine?

2- How do they understand those "facts" about needing limudei chol to
succeed in limudei chodesh. Which of the numerous possible responses I
refered to in response to the first snippet in this email they actually
believe.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 9th day, which is
micha at aishdas.org        1 week and 2 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Gevurah sheb'Gevurah: When is strict justice
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            most appropriate?