[Avodah] The Ramban on the Ibn Ezra

[Micha Berger]

On Fri, Jun 01, 2018 at 06:28:46AM -0400, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
: <https://www.torahmusings.com/2018/05/ramban-on-ibn-ezras-heresy>

:     Ramban on Ibn Ezra's Heresy Posted by: Gil Student
...
:     2- It could be that Ramban interpreted Ibn Ezra conservatively,
:        as some supercommentators and scholars have. If so, he could
:        agree with R. Ezra of Gerona generally but disagree with him
:        about Ibn Ezra.
...
:     J. C. Salomon
:     May 31, 18 at 6:49 pm

:     Ibn Ezra to Gen. 36:31 strongly rejects and condemns the notion that
:     the verse "And these are the kings that reigned in the land of Edom,
:     before there reigned any king over the children of Israel" is a late
:     addition to the text.

:     I might add a sixth possibility to the list: that Ibn Ezra held that
:     certain verses were added by Yehoshua; and that while Ramban might
:     have disagreed with this view, he'd have seen it as a legitimate
:     extension of the similar Talmudic view regarding the last eight
:     verses in the Torah and therefore not heretical.

Except that the tell-tale idiom is "sod ha-12", not 8. From Devarim 1:1:

    ... And if you understand sod hasheneim asar...

Pit stop: the standard text doesn't even say that, it says "(hasarim)
[tz"l hashneim] asar". So there is a slight chance it doesn't even
say 12. Back to the IE:

    ... also "Vayikhtov Moshe" (31:22), "VehaKenaani as Ba'aretz"
    (Bereishis 12:6), "Har H' Yeira'eh" (Bereishis 22:14), and also
    "arso eres barzel (Devarim 3:11), you will regonize the truth.

If it does refer to the last 12 pesuqim (from Moshe going up Har Nevo),
then there are 5 quotes in discussion. 4 refer to the future, likely
quotes for someone to say were actually written later. But Og's iron
bed?

And besides, it's the last 8 pesuqim that amoraim argue how and if Moshe
could have written them. Now, if Moshe couldn't write "and Moshe died",
then it makes sense to argue that he couldn't write "and Moshe went up
Har Nevo" if he never came back. But that is more conjecture, that this
"12" is "12 pesuqim", and the last 12 pesuqim at that, and that it is
related to chazal's discussion of last 8 pesuqim, and all this despite
one of the quotes not having this "problem" of not being true when Moshe
left us.

And for all we know, the secret could be about prophecy. Even if all 5
were about the future, who knows what secret the IE posited to explain
them?

One of the parts of the Torah that is NOT in this list is the list of
kings of Edom "lifnei melokh melekh liVnei Yisrael", Bereishis 36:31.
On which the IE qrites:

    Some say that this parashah was written bederekh nevu'ah.

    And Yitzchaqi says in his book that this parashah was written in the
    days of Yehoshafat, and he explains the generations as he wished.
    This is why his name was called Yitzchaq -- kol hashomeia yitzachaq
    li. .. Vechalillah chalilah that the matter is as he said about the
    days of Yehoshafat. His book is worth burning...

And he explains that the kings ran in rapid succession, this being
warrior tribes of Edom. And the melekh Yisrael in the pasuq was Moshe,
"vayhi bishurun Melekh. A lot of work if the IE was okay with later
interpolations of narrative snippets of 12 pesuqim or less.

In 2002, RGStudent reposed something from Cardozo at
<http://www.aishdas.org/toratemet/en_cardozo.html>. See fn 50:
    Most enlightening is Spinoza's observation that some texts of the
    Torah, such as the ones in Genesis 12:6; 22:14, and Deuteronomy 1:2,
    must have been written many years after Moshe's death, since they
    reveal information that refers to latter days. Spinoza relies here
    on the famous Jewish commentator Ibn Ezra (1088-1167), who wrote that
    these verses were "mysteries" about "which the wise should be silent"
    (on Deuteronomy 1:2). The traditional understanding of Ibn Ezra,
    as also confirmed by the modern Jewish scholar Samuel David Luzzatto
    (ShaDaL) (1800-1865), is that these passages must be understood as
    prophetic and anticipating the future. ....

However, in RGS's own essay on that web site
<http://www.aishdas.org/toratemet/en_torah.html> writes:
    Also, phrases and even verses were added to the texts that perhaps
    even these prophets could not have written. For example, Ramban
    explains (Genesis 8:21) "G-d said in His heart" as meaning that
    this was only revealed to Moshe at the time of the writing of the
    Torah. See also Ralbag there and Moreh Nevuchim 1:29. Another case is
    Genesis 32:33, "Therefore the Children of Israel are not to eat the
    gid hanasheh." According to the Mishna and Gemara in Chullin 101b,
    as explained by Rashi, this verse was a later insertion by Moshe. See
    the Radak's commentary to this verse. It is possible that Ibn Ezra, in
    his "secrecy", believed that many more verses fall into this category
    and were inserted into pre-existing narrative by G-d to Moshe.

His thesis there is that the Torah was redacted from pre-existing scrolls
during the Exodus; that it was this redaction that was dictated to
Moshe in Sinai. Since such megillos are named in a few places, it's a
pretty hard thesis to totally dismiss. The only question is how much
was already given in writing in texts like Seifer Milkhamos Hashem
(cf Bamidbar 21:13).

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Education is not the filling of a bucket,
micha at aishdas.org        but the lighting of a fire.
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