[Avodah] The Real Shiurim -- They're Smaller Than You Think

Micha Berger micha at aishdas.org
Fri Mar 23 09:55:08 PDT 2018


On Thu, Mar 22, 2018 at 05:40:31PM +0000, Professor L. Levine quoted
from R Rephael Fuchs's column in the Jewish Press at <https://goo.gl/Fx7AAh>:
: Today, many charts outline exactly how much matzah, maror, and wine must
: be eaten at he Seder. These shiurim, however, are significantly larger
: than what longstanding minhag requires.

And if we take a break from Ashkocentrism, many Sepharadim use the Rambam's
shiurim, which is creatinly at this point "longstanding minhag".

:             Another gadol of the previous generation, Rav Shlomo Zalman
: Auerbach, zt"l, recounted that when Rav Avraham Chaim Naeh published his
: sefer on shiurim, Shiurei Tzion, the Jews of Yerushalayim were shocked at
: how machmir he was (Meged Givos Olam II, Darchei Hora'ah 12). Rav Chaim
: Naeh's shiur for a revi'is is 86 grams, or 2.9 oz...

R' Yochanan Lombard explains how this happened at
<https://www.yeshiva.co/ask/?id=4348>:
   To clarify the issue a bit, Rav Chaim Naeh set out to support the
   existing minhag that was essentially based on a coin called a `dirham'
   which was used commonly as a certified weight. This coin was used
   extensively as a standard measure of weight throughout the Middle
   East from the times of the Rambam, who quotes it as the means of
   measuring halachic quantities. While Rav Naeh was fighting this cause,
   the Ottoman Empire was crumbling, and the dirham lost its stability.
   Unknowingly, the dirham Rav Chaim Naeh was using as a standard measure
   was roughly 10% larger than it was over the centuries, which threw him
   off a bit. Interestingly enough, Chazon Ish, who held the measurements
   should be doubled, did not double Rav Chaim Naeh's measurements
   based on the dirham, but rather what actually fit other standards,
   i.e. 75 cc. On a personal note, years back I used to sell eggs and
   measured dozens of them, finding that eggs are naturally around 50cc,
   putting the Reviit at 75cc (nowadays chickens are treated to grow
   large eggs and therefore the standard egg is almost 60cc which would
   fit Rav Chaim Naeh's measurement).

   Since Rav Chaim Naeh's halachic reasoning is based on the tradition
   of the dirham, and we know for certain that the dirham was actually
   smaller, Rav Chaim Naeh would surely agree that the Reviit should
   be 75cc.

Which is what above Rambam-following Sepharadim aim for, as it is the
Rambam who ties the revi'is to 27 dirhams.

BTW, R Modechai Willig holds 2.5floz (75cc) as well.
<http://download.yutorah.org/2012/1053/Pesach_To-Go_-_5771_Rabbi_Willig.pdf>

: number 86 is also the gematria of the word kos...

As if "grams" have any Jewish meaning?

(BTW, the spectrum of light reflected by murex tekheiles peaks at
a wavelength of 613 nanometers. Equally specious.)

: Last year I purchased an inexpensive scale and my grandchildren used
: it to weigh out the amounts of matzo and morror (Romaine lettuce) based
: on a chart that came from a sefer written by a rabbi who was an expert
: in these amounts. It turned out that the amounts of morror and matzo
: determined in this manner were considerably less than what we had eaten
: in previous years.

Was the Rav Sepharadi? They have a long tradition of assuming that all matzah
weighs alike, and therefore using weight to measure volume.

It is far more accurate than using area to approximate volume, as most
modern charts do. Two hand matzos could easily differ in thickness by
1/3 or more without someone noticing, so that the same area of matzah
similarly differ in volume and yet mentally estimate the same. However,
the flour to water ratio of matzah doesn't vary nearly that much, once
baked. Nor the weight of different flour.

Also the problem with relying on mimeticism for matzah. (Not so for wine
or maror.) Matzos had been steadily getting thinner from 1750 to 1950
or so. And it is so hard to notice differences in matzah thickness and
take them fully into account? Have social norms kept up with the reality
despite seeming different to the eye?

RMWillig has a kezayis of 22.5cc, and writes that Middos veShiurei
haTorah pg 277 reports matzah has half the weight of an equivalent
volume of water. So, RMW says a kezayi matzah weighs 11.25gm. (1cc of
water weighs 1gm, by definition. So, the weight of 2cc of matzah is 1gm.)
We buy matzah by the pound, so you can estimate a kazayis pretty
accurately if you know how many matzos are in a 1lb box. (2lb boxes,
divide by 2, naturally.) There are 40.3 or so kezeisim in a pound.

matzos / lb  ->  kezayis matzah
 6  ->  2/13 of a matzah
 7  ->  1/6
 8  ->  1/5
 9  ->  2/9
10  ->  1/4

And if you're buying Syrian matzah from R David in Flatbush
3.5 -> 2/23
Yes, 11 to 12 kezeisim from a matzah smaller than a personal pizza.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A pious Jew is not one who worries about his fellow
micha at aishdas.org        man's soul and his own stomach; a pious Jew worries
http://www.aishdas.org   about his own soul and his fellow man's stomach.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                       - Rav Yisrael Salanter

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Good decisions come from experience;
micha at aishdas.org        Experience comes from bad decisions.
http://www.aishdas.org                - Djoha, from a Sepharadi fable
Fax: (270) 514-1507


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