[Avodah] Let's Talk a Bit About Hashem

[Micha Berger]

On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 08:42:38PM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
: Interesting article from R' Gidon Rothstein. He didn't phrase it quite this
: blatantly, but I sense a suggestion that Creation *doesn't* obligate us to
: obey Hashem, and that bothers me. So I'd like to propose an idea, and y'all
: can weigh in on whether it is compatible with RDR and his sources.

The post was based on the Ramban. We would have to distinguish between
what the Ramban said by any interpreation, and what is specifically RGS's.

"Experimentally", it seems the Creation could obligate the 7 Mitzvos.
After all, that's the duty of humanity.

Jews have a duty beyond that. What obligates that?

: As I see it, the Law of Lo Tignov is just as obligatory as the Law of
: Gravity; it's just that the effects of one are more immediate and obvious
: than the other. Phrased differently, we are all obligated to obey these
: laws, and this obligation exists even if we don't accept it, and even if we
: don't even recognize it. These laws apply to all of G-d's creations.

I don't know what you mean by the Law of Gravity being "obligatory".
Natural law is in the realm of "Is", halakhah and morality are in the
realm of "Ought". Gravity is a pattern about how things behave. There
is a tendency to reify (make a reality out of something abstract)
that pattern into a law they must obey, it's not an "obligation". It's
something they /do/ obey.

But since we're talking about the Ramban, maybe we shouldn't jump to that
reification so quickly. Doesn't he hold that "natural law" is just a term
for patterns in His Action, hiding what is really just as miraculous as
things we identify as "miracles"?

I might suggest that that there is a natural and/or metaphysical law behind
Lo Signov, but it wouldn't be "Thou Shalt Not Steal" (really: Kidnap, but
we'll ignore that for this discussion). Rather, it would be that bad things
happen when you steal. Therefore Hashem warns us away from it for our own
good. A notion of halakhah as Doctor's Orders more than General's Orders.

Otherwise, as I said, I fail to understand your meaning.

: But there is another group of laws, those given to Bnei Yisrael. These are
: the ones that we accepted at Yetzias Mitzrayim.

Which could also be Doctor's Orders. Just as a piano mover can only do his
job if he obeys more health rules than necessary for most lines of work.

: The outside world views the Ten Commandments as universal, and maybe that's
: why we are surprised to the first one talking about the Exodus rather than
: Creation...

Rihal has the Chaver give the Kuzari king an entirely different kind of
answer. Hashem opens with "asher hotzeisikha mei'Eretz Mitzrayim" not
because that's the reason for observance, but because those are the
grounds for our knowing He Exists.

    He then invited a Jewish Rabbi, and asked him about his belief.

    11. The Rabbi replied: I believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac and
    Israel, who led the children of Israel out of Egypt with signs and
    miracles; who fed them in the desert and gave them the land, after
    having made them traverse the sea and the Jordan in a miraculous way;
    who sent Moses with His law, and subsequently thousands of prophets,
    who confirmed His law by promises to the observant, and threats
    to the disobedient. Our belief is comprised in the Torah -- a very
    large domain.

    12. I had not intended to ask any Jew, because I am aware of their
    reduced condition and narrow-minded views, as their misery left them
    nothing commendable. Now shouldst thou, O Jew, not have said that
    thou believest in the Creator of the world, its Governor and Guide,
    and in Him who created and keeps thee, and such attributes which serve
    as evidence for every believer, and for the sake of which He pursues
    justice in order to resemble the Creator in His wisdom and justice?

    13. The Rabbi: That which thou dost express is religion based on
    speculation and system, the research of thought, but open to many
    doubts. Now ask the philosophers, and thou wilt find that they do
    not agree on one action or one principle, since some doctrines can
    be established by arguments, which are only partially satisfactory,
    and still much less capable of being proved.

    14. Al Khazari: That which thou sayest now, O Jew, seems to be more
    to the point than the beginning, and I should like to hear more.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Weeds are flowers too
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