[Avodah] Chalav Gevinas Yisrael - Halachic sources

[Zev Sero]

On 25/01/18 03:41, Rabbi Meir Rabi via Avodah wrote:
> Chazal refused to discuss the reasons for the Cheese Decree until it was 
> accepted [Gem AZ 35] as they realised the reasons were not particularly 
> persuasive and it could be easily knocked down in its formative years. 

That is *not* what the gemara says.  The gemara says it was the practice 
in the West not to discuss the reason for *any* decree for *one* year.


> So there is precious little Kashrus Halacha to support the Cheese
 > Decree. It was instituted to promote Social Isolation.

On the contrary, the amoraim openly discuss possible reasons, and 
isolation is *not* one of them.  The majority of rishonim ruled like 
Shmuel, that the reason is for fear that it was made with rennet from a 
non-kosher animal.  This was *not* a certainty, but it was common enough 
that Chazal worried about it and forbade all cheese made by a nochri 
(or, according to the Rama, without supervision).


> Rather the milk would have been collected for drinking or to sell for
> drinking - in which case the deception would go unnoticed - but it
> was leftover and could be preserved by making it into cheese.]
> Now, if we are to assert that it goes without saying that cheese 
> MUST be made with ChYisrael - then this reasoning makes no sense at
> all because the cheese MUST be made with milk that is ChYisrael.

And yet that is what the Rama explicitly does rule. Milk that is milked 
for drinking, and therefore the issur was chal, cannot be kashered by 
turning it into cheese.  Therefore there is something wrong with your 
reasoning.   For instance, this supports RMF's shita that the issur of 
milk is not chal until the milk comes into Jewish ownership.  Therefore, 
until gevinas nochri was forbidden, a nochri *could* rescue milk that 
was still in his ownership by turning it into cheese, which he could 
then sell to Jews, but Chazal (according to R Chanina) were worried that 
since he milked it for drinking he might have added treif milk to it, 
and remnants of that would still be present in the cheese, so they 
forbade it.


> Is it certainly incorrect to posit the following - Halacha assumes
> that all cheese from a gy is prohibited by Torah Law, because he has
> probably made it with non-Kosher rennet [and possibly also used non-K milk].

Nobody suggests that it's an issur Torah;  there are many cheeses that 
are set with kosher rennet (or, according to R Chanina, that are made 
with 100% kosher milk).


> However Chazal wanted to ban even this. Even when a Yid is present to
> guarantee the Kashrus of the milk and also bring along some Kosher
> rennet either from his own Shechted calf or tree sap or flower nectar,
> it is still not Kosher. So what need we do to have Gevinas Yisrael?
> Participate in making it.

According to the Shach, yes.  The Rama disagrees.



> There is only one problem - the Rema Paskens [YD 115:2] that Gevinas
> Yisrael is made by having a Y WATCH the manufacturing of the cheese.
> [...]
> Perhaps it is true that not ALL the non-K milk is filtered out; 
> there may still the leftover milk, but it is certainly wrong to say -
> it is forbidden; the Rema Paskens [115:2] that the cheese is Kosher.

No, for two reasons: 1) because the Rama does not pasken like R Chanina 
that the reason for the gezera is because of leftover milk.  He paskens 
like Shmuel that it's because of the rennet.  Therefore, he says, if we 
saw him use kosher rennet it's OK.  2) because the Rama paskens the milk 
must be CY too (unless it was originally milked for cheese-making).





-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 2018 to all
zev at sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper