[Avodah] The Purpose of Yahadus and Crime Statistics

[Micha Berger]

On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 09:20:22PM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
: In an earlier draft of this post, I wrote that if religious Jews are
: so much more ethical than others, and that this effect were so visible
: that it would be obvious even without formal statisticians, it would
: pose serious problems for Bechira Chofshis...

Why? It's not miraculous. Nor would it creat a taavah to be ethical. Either
way, no need to dwell on your hava amina.

: But then I realized, as RMB put it:
:> The Torah describes itself to be a means of producing better people.

: I could ask him for sources, but why bother? Even if the sources in
: Torah Sheb'ksav could be debated, the sources in Chazal are
: overwhelming... the point is that there *IS* an expectation for
: the typical Jew to be noticably better in these areas.

I was making a stronger point when I asked:
:> ... ... what exactly is Yahadus about?
: 
: I can't speak for anyone else, but for *me*, Torah is about obedience
: to the Creator...

As an end in itself? Or

: If we would simply put in the time and effort to follow the User's
: Manual (a/k/a Torah), this universe would run as it ought to. That
: would include everything that Rabbi Berger expects from a group of
: ethical Torahdik people. I do agree with him, that if enough of us
: were doing Torah the way we ought to be doing it, the effects WOULD be
: visible, even without statisticians.

So then we're in agreement. That sentence was my whole point.

: The difference is of cause and effect...         If Shmiras Hamitzvos is a
: tool to a more socially equitable world, is that "what Yahadus is
: about"?

I am saying yes.

I am working from ther position that the User Manual is about how to be
better people. Sheleimus. Notice that this isn't as specific as being
ethically better.

However, that has to be at least part of it, and I would suggest that in
Litvisher derakhim, is what Yahadus is about. With the Pulmus haMussar
being over whether we need to work at it consciously, or we should just
take care of learning and it will happen on its own.

To quote R' Yitzchaq Volozhiner's intro to his father's Nefesh haChaim,
this is the point of Yahadus according to the founder of Yeshivish (and
an ancestor of Mussar):
    He regularly rebuked me, because he saw that I did not participate
    in the pain of others. And these were his constant words to me,
    "This is the entire person: One is not created for oneself, but to
    benefit others to the full extent of one's potential."

Along similar lines, someone as anti-Mussar and as intellectually
oriented as R' Chaim Brisker wanted the words "Rav Chessed" as the
only compliment on his matzaivah.

And course, I have to quote R' Shimon Shkop:

   BLESSED SHALL BE the Creator, and exalted shall be the Maker, Who
   created us in His "Image" and in the likeness of His "Structure",
   and planted eternal life within us, so that our greatest desire should
   be to do good to others, to individuals and to the masses, now and in
   the future, in imitation of the Creator (as it were). For everything
   He created and formed was according to His Will (may it be blessed),
   [that is] only to be good to the creations. So too His Will is that
   we walk in His ways. As it says "and you shall walk in His Ways" --
   that we, the select of what He made -- should constantly hold as our
   purpose to sanctify our physical and spiritual powers for the good
   of the many, according to our abilities.

(There is a much longer argument for it in my manuscript, when I write
about this first part of the haqdamah to Shaarei Yosher.)

So, where I come from, all of Yahadus is about being more ehrlach.

And this is merely taking Hillel's "de'alakh sani", R' Aqiva's or Ben
Azzai's opinions of the Torah's "kelal gadol" at face value.

I realize that other derakhim might object to turning bein adam laMaqom
into a means of better accomplishing bein adam lachaveiro. (For example,
even within Mussar, R' Wolbe's Olam haYedidus makes BALM, BALC and bein
adam le'atzmo are three equal centers of value.) For that matter, not
every rishon does take those gemaros at face value. 70 panim laTorah.

: Maybe I'm being too demanding, and too simplistic. So let me be clear:
: If a person is careful with his Bein Adam L'chaveiro because he knows
: that's Hashem's plan to avoid strife and make a better world, that is
: a truly great thing. My only point is that if the project doesn't seem
: to be working, he must keep in mind that the better world would only
: have been a SIDE BENEFIT to his mitzvos. It is not the ikar reason for
: doing them.

And I disagree, claiming it's the primary point of those mitzvos, the
ikar reason why Hashem suggested these actions and not some other set
of commands.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Worrying is like a rocking chair:
micha at aishdas.org        it gives you something to do for a while,
http://www.aishdas.org   but in the end it gets you nowhere.
Fax: (270) 514-1507