[Avodah] How can R' Yochanan and Resh Lakish argue about the tradition of a Gezera Shava?

[Micha Berger]

On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 12:10:10PM +0200, Marty Bluke wrote:
: > So, he had a mesorah from a rebbe other than his rebbe muvhaq or any
: > of his own rabbeim -- maybe just a shiur from someone else he sat in
: > once... (Which is similar to RJR's #2.)

: What other mesora? It's not that Resh Lakish had a gezera shava that R'
: Yochanan didn't have that he could have learned from someone else. The
: Gemara says that he didn't have a kabbala on a gezera shava that R'
: Yochanan had.

This wasn't the ikar of my answer; I was just ammending RJR's answer to
reflect the fact that the gemara says "rabosav" not "rabo".

But it seems to me now you are saying the OP was asking how it's possible
that R' Yochanan knew something that he didn't pass on to Reish Laqish.
Or more accurately, where would RL learn something to have him question a
GS when R Yochanan told him of it the first time.

In which case, my intended answer works even better -- the presmise that
every GS is a tradition dating back to Sinai is false. A conclusion the
other RMB gives far more sources for than I did.

:> Or...

:> If "Moavi velo Mo'avis" was darsehened first by Boaz's court, then we
:> know of at least one gezeira shava -- from Amon to Moav -- that Boaz
:> invoked withtout a tradition of its existence dating back from Sinai.

: That was a gezera shava? In any case the Gemara in Nidda (19b) states that
: ayn adam dan gezera shava meatzmo, says Rashi he needs a kabbala from his
: rebbe halacha l'moshe misinai.

Not every "halakhah leMoshe MiSinai" is literally so.

R' Avohu on Kesuvos 7b says that Boaz collected 10 men in "lemidrash
'amoni velo amonis, moavi velo moavis." How does he know it wasn't for
7 berakhos (R' Nachman's shitah)? Because of the need to get "miziqnei
ha'ir". Why 10? [I presume -- and not a BD of 3:] lefirsumei milsa.

Similarly, Rus Rabba 7:9 states that Peloni didn't know *shenischadshah*
din zu.

As for "that was a GS?" (A question Lisa also asks...) Amoni velo Amonis
is justified because the Amoni ddidn't bring food or water when we
came to their land. And it is the men we would have expected to recieve
or even buy such previsions from. Moav velo Moavis would be a pretty
arbitrary time to insist a word be read as specifically male instead
of gender-neutral if it weren't by GS to Amoni.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

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