[Avodah] How can R' Yochanan and Resh Lakish argue about the tradition of a Gezera Shava?

[Marty Bluke]

On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 12:58 AM, Micha Berger <micha at aishdas.org> wrote:

> On Sat, Nov 25, 2017 at 10:27:38PM +0200, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote:
> : The Gemara in Makos(14b) has a dispute between R' Yochanan and Resh
> Lakish
> : which revolves around a gezera shava. R' Yochanan has the gezera shava
> and
> : Resh Lakish does not, Rashi explains that Resh Lakish did not get this
> : gezera shava from his rebbeim.
> :
> : This seems very difficult because the gemara in Bava Metzia (84a)
> describes
> : how Resh Lakish was the head of a group of bandits and R' Yochanan
> : persuaded hm to learn Torah and was clearly Rabo Muvhak...
>
> So, he had a mesorah from a rebbe other than his rebbe muvhaq or any
> of his own rabbeim -- maybe just a shiur from someone else he sat in
> once... (Which is similar to RHR's #2.)
>
What other mesora? It's not that Resh Lakish had a gezera shava that R'
Yochanan didn't have that he could have learned from someone else. The
Gemara says that he didn't have a kabbala on a gezera shava that R'
Yochanan had.

>
> Or...
>
> If "Moavi velo Mo'avis" was darsehened first by Boaz's court, then we
> know of at least one gezeira shava -- from Amon to Moav -- that Boaz
> invoked withtout a tradition of its existence dating back from Sinai.
>

That was a gezera shava? In any case the Gemara in Nidda (19b) states that
ayn adam dan gezera shava meatzmo, says Rashi he needs a kabbala from his
rebbe halacha l'moshe misinai.

For that matter, if the Rambam assumed that the rule about no new gezeiros
> shava really was in place from day one, then he would have to assert that
> like [other] halakhos leMoshe miSinai, there couldn't be machloqesin in
> any of them. I would therefore deduce from the Rambam's silence in the
> face of numerous such machloqesin, he must have thought that gezeiros
> shava could be invented (or as other riahonim would have it: discovered)
> without a mesorah.


> It would seem the idea that GS requires a mesorah has a loophole. Perhaps
> the notion is that the textual connection must have a mesorah, but
> the lesson taken from it could be left to the later generation to find.
>

Tosafos in Shabbos (97a) states that they had a mesora on the number of
gezera shavas and therefore they had to reconcile the various traditions
with the number of gezera shavas. This would seem to come to address the
question of why certain Tannaim/Amoraim had a gezera shava and others
didn't. However, it doesn't answer the question on Resh Lakish who must
have gotten the number from Rabo Muvhak R' Yochanan.

The Rishonim/Acharonim in Nida (22b) are bothered by the question that the
Gemara says that a gezera shava that is mufne mi tzad echad lmeidin
umeshivin and mufne mishnei tz'dadim lmeidim vayn m'shivim. If there was a
kabala on the gezera shava then why does it need to be mufne and if there
was no kabbala then why should it be accepted even if it is mufne?

The Ramban on the Sefer Hamitzvos (Shoresh 2) based on this question
rejects the simple understanding of ayn adam dan gezera shava meiatzmo that
all the details of the gezera shavas were received at Har Sinai by Moshe.
Rather, they had a kabbala that there was a gezera shava with a certain
word pair but not which set of those words and what halacha is learned from
it and therefore it is up to the chachamim to decide based on the
principles that they received to decide what exactly the gezera shava was
and therefore there is machlokes. This is what the Gemara in Nidda is
discussing, the principles relating to figuring out what exactly the gezera
shava is. Unfortunately, this does not really answer all of the Gemara's
and disputes about gezera shavas.

>
> Also, it is interesting that the contrast in Pesachim 66a to the mesorah
> needed for GS is the qal vachomer. A rule of logic that a person truly
> could make on their own in a way that doesn't apply to another of the
> other midos sheheTorah nidreshes bahen.
>
There is a machlokes Rashi and Tosafos whether it is only a kal vachomer
that adam dan meatzmo or all the middos except for gezera shava.

>
> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha
>
> --
> Micha Berger             When faced with a decision ask yourself,
> micha at aishdas.org        "How would I decide if it were Ne'ilah now,
> http://www.aishdas.org   at the closing moments of Yom Kippur?"
> Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter
>
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