[Avodah] Trashing Kapporos - Kapporah Gain, or Kapporah Deficit?

[Zev Sero]

On 29/09/17 16:15, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 29, 2017 at 01:03:26AM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
> : On 28/09/17 15:03, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> : >Teh Be'eir Heiteiv (#4) prefers using money (citing the Shelah and the
> : >Maharil)...
> :
> : No, he doesn't.  The idea of using money is extremely recent, and it
> : would never have even occured to the Baer Hetev...
> 
> Well, let's pull up the mar'eh maqom I cited, BH OC 605:4, d"h "bemamon".
>      And this is better than giving the ani a rooster, for he will
>      be mevayeish (Shelah, Maharil). And he should be nizhar to give
>      maaser; he shouldn't take this pidyon from maaser money, rather
>      from his own money. (Shelah)

As I pointed out before, that is not talking about how to do kaporos, it 
refers only to what to do with the chicken afterwards.  Kaporos cannot 
be done on money.  The idea makes no sense.  Kaporos is done on a 
chicken, and then there is a separate minhag to give tzedaka, and it's 
better to give money than the chicken.



> : You have confused how one does kaparos with what one does with the
> : chicken afterwards.   Kaparos has nothing to do with tzedaka....
> 
> Actually, the tzedaqah of the chicken that the BH he tells you is
> inferior to giving moneey, is the meilitz yosher mini elef we refer
> to in the text of kaparos. Right before YK we do one last mitzcah as a
> meilitz yosher before going into din.

Since when?  Where did you get that idea?  The language of the Rama and 
the nos'ei kelim is very clear, and there is no mention at all of a 
connection between kaparos and tzedaka.   Plus, kaporos is not done 
right before YK, it's supposed to be done in the morning watch, before 
daybreak (though nowadays because of the large numbers some recommend 
doing it as much as a few days earlier).



> I think the problem is that living in chassidishe circles, you have
> primarily heard more mystical explanations for the minhag.

Where did you see a *non*-mystical explanation?

> I also think /you/ are confusing the pidyon of the chicken with the
> pidyon of the person.

The chicken is the pidyon of the person.  Zeh chalifasi.   Later, 
instead of giving the chicken to tzedaka as is the minhag, one can buy 
it, like pidyon maaser sheni.



> :> Also, the Rama's only reason for keeping the minhag going is its age --
> :> we shouldn't drop a minhag vasiqin just willy nilly.
> 
> : No, it isn't.  "Minhag vasiqin" doesn't mean an old minhag, it means
> : a minhag of the ancients.  He's not appealing to its age but to its
> : pedigree....
> 
> Source?

It's what the word means.  Vasikin is not an adjective, it's a plural 
noun.  It doesn't mean "ancient", it means "the ancients".


> He finds a geonic refernce and sayce it's been continuously
> suported since, then calls it a minhag vasiqin. Admittely that proves
> pedigree as well as age. But where's your source that we use vasiqin
> to mean the greats among the baalei mesorah? How would your definition
> fit YD 196:1: "ki kibelu me'eitzeh chakham shehorah lahen, vehu minhag
> vasiqin"?

The same thing.   Although don't know who gave this heter someone must 
have, and it's a custom of the ancients so don't mess with it even if we 
don't understand it.


-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
zev at sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all