[Avodah] Kellogg's Products containing gelatin & interesting story

[Zev Sero via Avodah]

On 28/08/17 15:18, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 03:11:04PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> : [RMF holds] that the gezera only applies to the last nochri from whose
> : possession it passes to the possession of a yid, so we don't need
> : observation *or* certain knowledge of what previous owners have
> : done.
> 
> I have wondered about this for a while.... Why doesn't this translate
> into an issur of chalav haneelam min ha'ayin?
> 
> For example, say my office-mate buys CY and leaves it in the company
> kitchen fridge, as a service for his CY-drinking co workers. (Not really
> a service, in the real world we all take our turns.) The milk is left
> unattanded. Why is that milk still CY when I take some?

I think RMF would say that since (according to him) all that matters is 
the transition from reshus nochri to reshus yisroel, and what's needed 
is re'iyas yisroel throughout its possession by that last nochri, 
therefore once it's in reshus yisroel it remains CY and no further 
supervision is needed.

I think those who are cholek on RMF would say all that matters is the 
instant of literal milking, therefore once you had yisroel ro'eihu at 
that moment no further supervision is necessary, and they don't care 
about reshus.

What I wonder is, according to RMF, what if a nochri buys milk (either 
ordinary commercial milk which he holds is CY for non-mehadrin, or 
certified CY lim'hadrin) for the benefit of his  employees or guests. 
The passage from reshus nochri to reshus yisroel is when the Jew pours 
from the bottle into his cup.  And there was no re'iyas yisroel (even in 
the sense of "anan sahadi") while it was in this nochri's possession. 
So what makes it CY?

This can be further split into two scenarios:

(1) The nochri bought certified CY lim'hadrin from a non-Jewish grocery, 
which bought it from a non-Jewish company with supervision, which bought 
it from a non-Jewish farm with supervision.  It was CY lim'hadrin from 
the moment of milking until this nochri bought it.  But now it isn't.

(2) The nochri bought certified CY lim'hadrin from a Jewish grocery, or 
from a non-Jewish grocery that bought it from a Jewish dairy, so that at 
one point it was already in reshus yisroel.  In other words, there was 
more than one transition from reshus nochri to reshus yisroel: (a) when 
the dairy bought it from the farmer, and (b) when the yid pours it from 
the bottle.  Do we say that the gezera only applies to the first such 
transition, and once it's in reshus yisroel with a status of CY that 
status is frozen in forever, even if it subsequently goes back to reshus 
nochri?

-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
zev at sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all