[Avodah] Trashing Kapporos - Kapporah Gain, or Kapporah Deficit?

[Micha Berger]

On Fri, Sep 29, 2017 at 01:03:26AM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
: On 28/09/17 15:03, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
: >Teh Be'eir Heiteiv (#4) prefers using money (citing the Shelah and the
: >Maharil)...
: 
: No, he doesn't.  The idea of using money is extremely recent, and it
: would never have even occured to the Baer Hetev...

Well, let's pull up the mar'eh maqom I cited, BH OC 605:4, d"h "bemamon".
    And this is better than giving the ani a rooster, for he will
    be mevayeish (Shelah, Maharil). And he should be nizhar to give
    maaser; he shouldn't take this pidyon from maaser money, rather
    from his own money. (Shelah)

: You have confused how one does kaparos with what one does with the
: chicken afterwards.   Kaparos has nothing to do with tzedaka....

Actually, the tzedaqah of the chicken that the BH he tells you is
inferior to giving moneey, is the meilitz yosher mini elef we refer
to in the text of kaparos. Right before YK we do one last mitzcah as a
meilitz yosher before going into din.

I think the problem is that living in chassidishe circles, you have
primarily heard more mystical explanations for the minhag.

I also think /you/ are confusing the pidyon of the chicken with the
pidyon of the person.

:> Also, the Rama's only reason for keeping the minhag going is its age --
:> we shouldn't drop a minhag vasiqin just willy nilly.

: No, it isn't.  "Minhag vasiqin" doesn't mean an old minhag, it means
: a minhag of the ancients.  He's not appealing to its age but to its
: pedigree....

Source? He finds a geonic refernce and sayce it's been continuously
suported since, then calls it a minhag vasiqin. Admittely that proves
pedigree as well as age. But where's your source that we use vasiqin
to mean the greats among the baalei mesorah? How would your definition
fit YD 196:1: "ki kibelu me'eitzeh chakham shehorah lahen, vehu minhag
vasiqin"?

GCT and :-)@@ii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Life is complex.
micha at aishdas.org                Decisions are complex.
http://www.aishdas.org               The Torah is complex.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                                - R' Binyamin Hecht
: Shelah or the Maharil.    The central point of kaparos but that a
: life is being exchanged for a life, so it makes no sense to do it
: with an inanimate object such as money.
: 
: You have confused how one does kaparos with what one does with the
: chicken afterwards.   Kaparos has nothing to do with tzedaka., but
: the Rema, citing the Maharil, says that there is a minhag that after
: kaparos, instead of eating the chicken, one gives it to the poor, or
: else one exchanges it for money and give that to the poor.   The
: Baer Hetev, citing the Shelah, says the latter version is better,
: since it's less embarrassing to the recipient.
: 
: 
: >Also, the Rama's only reason for keeping the minhag going is its age --
: >we shouldn't drop a minhag vasiqin just willy nilly.
: 
: No, it isn't.  "Minhag vasiqin" doesn't mean an old minhag, it means
: a minhag of the ancients.  He's not appealing to its age but to its
: pedigree.  The vasiqin instituted it, and they knew what they were
: doing, so we should not change it just because we don't understand
: it; we should trust them and do as they taught us.
: 
: -- 
: Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
: zev at sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all
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: 

GCT and :-)@@ii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Life is complex.
micha at aishdas.org                Decisions are complex.
http://www.aishdas.org               The Torah is complex.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                                - R' Binyamin Hecht