[Avodah] The 93 Beit Yaakov Martyrs: A Modern Midrash

[Micha Berger via Avodah]

On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 04:21:39PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
: He explicitly says *yes* for believing it to the exclusion of a
: deeper meaning.  It's right in his words.

: "They accept the teachings of the sages in their simple literal
: sense and do not think that these teachings contain any hidden
: meaning at all. [...] They, therefore, believe that the sages
: intended no more in their carefully emphatic and straightforward
: utterances than they themselves are able to understand with
: inadequate knowledge. They understand the teachings of the sages
: only in their literal sense".

And you skip everything he says about believing foolishness as
irrelevant?

Here's what you ellided, again:
    They believe that all sorts of impossible things must be. They hold
    such opinions because they have not understood science and are far
    from having acquired knowledge. They possess no perfection which
    would rouse them to insight from within, nor have they found anyone
    else to stimulate them to profounder understanding.

But people who understood science, acquired knowledge, who posess
the perfection which would rouse them to insight from within, or have
somoene to stimulate them to profounder understanding wouldn't believe
that "all sorts of impossible things must be".

: That's *why* they're so attached to the surface meaning that they
: can't let it go even when the context indicates otherwise...
:                    The third group understand that there is more
: going on, and therefore it's acceptable, *when the context calls for
: it*, to say that a specific maamar *has* no surface meaning, and
: thus trying to make sense of its words as a straight narrative is
: futile.

So you are agreeing that one SHOULD let go of surface meaning when context
indicates that they should? That's the problem is not only a lack of nimshel
meaning, but that they believe a mashal that is ahistoric? Then what are
we in disagreement about?

What then did you mean by, "He's *not* making some bold statement against
medroshim-as-history."

If the surface meaning is incomprehensible as a straight narrative,
then what is left of medroshim as history.

In any case, as I've been describing the Rambam, he is saying that
chazal tell these stories for their nimshalim. Some of the stories may be
historical, but that's irrelevant. And that's why Chazal are comfortable
repeating stories that can't be true.

Unlike your claim, more typical of more recent derakhim in machashavah,
that since HQBH can do anything, it would be apiqursus to say that some
story can't be true.

And I think the difference is modal logic, and differences between
meanings of "can't". Hashem has no limitations of koach to prevent
Him from doing anything (the paradoxical and meaningless aside for the
moment), but we know that some Divine Decisions are absurd and would
never happen.

At least, those of us not in the first kat do.

...
: "Unreasonable" does not mean "requires miracles".  It is the very
: attitude that regards the supernatural as inherently unreasonable
: that I'm calling apikorsus.

Thinking that HQBH wouldn't violate the hesteir Panim of galus isn't
apiqursus. Whether or not either of us would choose to believe He actually
did, such a belief is certainly mutar.

And if someone does believe that, or believe that miracles only happen
in some other limited rance of circumstances, and therefore does not
believe that a given medrash could be historical, he is not an apiqoreis
and is indeed in the Rambam's 3rd kat.

For example, what if someone believes that only people who already are
such steadfast maaminim and baalei bitachon that a given neis wouldn't
surprise them or strike them out of the ordinatry at all would experience
one. (Taken from the Sefornu or Ramban on the justice of "hikhbadti es
leiv Par'oh ve'es leiv ha'am".) Then he could believe that Chanina ben
Dosa bentched shabbos licht with vinegar, but not many other aggaditos.

And according to the Rambam, no one really saw sheidim. Just as no navi
really saw mal'akhim, leshitaso -- and of the two, he only believes
mal'akhim even exist!

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Zion will be redeemed through justice,
micha at aishdas.org        and her returnees, through righteousness.
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