[Avodah] restaurants

[Micha Berger via Avodah]

On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 01:44:00PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
: From the OU:
:     Igros Moshe (OC II:40) was asked whether one may enter a non-kosher
:     restaurant to purchase something kosher. He writes that this would
:     be a violation of both maris ayin (possibly causing those who witness
:     the action to become more lax in their Torah observance) and chashad
:     (giving the appearance of impropriety)...

A question about that "and"...

I agree with their parenthetic definition, but I will rephrase to show
why I think it's rare-to-impossible for something to simultaneously be
both mar'is ayin and cheshad.

Mar'is ayin is where someone who sees the action will assume it's mutar,
or at least informally "not so bad".

Cheshad is where someone who sees the action is sure it's assur, and
therefore think less of the person doing it.

How many actions involve two conflicting default umdenos?

So, being confused, I looked up the Igeros Moshe. The teshuvah is
primarily about a frum minyan in a room in a non-O synagogue. The last
paragraph begins "Ubedavar im mutar le'ekhol berestarant..." ("Restaurant"
transliterated in Yiddish or hil' gittin style.)

The line is "yeis le'esor mishum mar'is ayin vecheshad". But if someone
is mitzta'er tuva, so that these gezeiros do not apply, they could eat
betzin'ah something that has no actual kashrus problem.

Does "ve-" here have to mean both? Or could it mean that between the two,
it is assur in all circumstances? Like "lulav hagazul vehayaveish pasul"
doesn't refer only to a lulav that is both stolen and dried out. Chazal's
"ve-" is more complex than "and". (I am tempted to discuss de Morgan's
laws and ve-, but I will just leave in this hint rather than detour into
a class in symbolic logic.)

If it does have to mean both mar'ish ayin and cheshad, can someone

: Question - Are marit atin and chashad social construct based?

I am not clear how they could NOT be.

: For example, in our society if you see a man in a suit and kippah in
: a treif restaurant, what is the general reaction? Is there a certain %
: threshold for concern?

In NYC, if you see two people, only one of which in O uniform, entering
a restaurant, it's common to just assume this is a business meeting and
accomodations were made. Restaurants in Manhattan routinely take delivery
for a kosher meal when catering a group; it's a matter of the minimum
size of the group they'll make such accomodation for. (I have been one
of three, and got Abigails delivered double-sealed.) In such a climate,
I don't think people would assume you're there to eat treif even if it's
just two people meeting and no kosher could possibly be brought in from
the outside. It's just a known thing.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The purely righteous do not complain about evil,
micha at aishdas.org        but add justice, don't complain about heresy,
http://www.aishdas.org   but add faith, don't complain about ignorance,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      but add wisdom.     - R AY Kook, Arpelei Tohar