[Avodah] Better to die

[Micha Berger via Avodah]

On Tue, Jun 06, 2017 at 05:48:13PM +0000, Ben Bradley via Avodah wrote:
: > Yes, on the pain of yeihareig; but it's not technically YvAY because
: > there is no actual issur la'avor.
: 
: I don't understand you. If there was no issur then why would it be on
: pain of yeihareig? Where do you find a chiyuv of yeihareig execpt where
: there's an issur involved?

Red shoelaces?

: The only other possiblility, which you seem to be assuming, is that
: yeihareig here is a gezeira, not a d'oraisa, on which see below.

No, it could be preservational and still deOraisa.

Like my example of a ben soreier umoreh, who Chazal say dies al sheim
ha'asid -- we're also preventing the continuing deteriation in a downward
spiral.

This "downward spiral" was what I was calling Hil' Dei'os.

Hirhurim and hana'ah -- devarim sheleiv in general -- aren't even
punishable altogether, how could they allow a court to decide yeihareig?
Most dinei nefashos don't even qualify.

: Rambam brings this din not in De'os but in Yesodei HaTorah in the context
: of mesiras nefesh al kiddush hashem and issur hana'a from aveira. He must
: be holding that we're dealing with issur and specfically with hana'as
: issur or it would make no sense to this halacha where he does.

And qiddush hasheim could involve avoiding something that is not assur
either. (Agian: red shoelaces.) That too is death to preserve an attitude.

I am just saying that your desire to make this yeihareig ve'al ya'avor
is putting an overly formal halachic box. Whether or not something is
a qiddush hasheim or otherwise worth dying for is not necessarily
reducible to a Brisker chalos-sheim.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The purely righteous do not complain about evil,
micha at aishdas.org        but add justice, don't complain about heresy,
http://www.aishdas.org   but add faith, don't complain about ignorance,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      but add wisdom.     - R AY Kook, Arpelei Tohar