[Avodah] Explanation of the Tur?

[Micha Berger via Avodah]

On Thu, May 18, 2017 at 09:53:30PM +0100, Chana Luntz via Avodah wrote:
: However, in describing what is permitted to teach women in Shut HaMaharil
: Siman 199, the Maharil writes:
...
:> And to teach women even though they need to fulfil all the positive
:> commandments and negatives also that are not time bound, in any event, we
:> should not teach her since it is like teaching her tiflut ...

:> And if in order that they should know to fulfil the mitzvot it is possible
:> to teach them according to the tradition the sources and the general rules
:> and when they are in doubt they should ask to a teacher, just like we see in
:> our generation that many are experts in many laws such as salting and
:> hadacha and nikur and the halachot of nidah and similar to this, all is by
:> way of tradition from outside,

I think the word "source" in your translation is misleading "Al pi
haqabalah hasherashim vehakelalos" doesn't really mean mean textual
sources, like the mishnah or QSA. This teshuvah could well mean "qabalah"
in the same sense as a mohel or a shocheit, knowledge of practice rather
than knowledge of abstract ideas.

However, the Maharil also touches on the topic in Shu"t Maharil
haChadashos 45, #2, in a discussion of women saying Birkhas haTorah. There
I ass more promise. he quotes the Rambam (which you already discussed)
and the Sema"q's haqdamah (from near the end). There the Maharil talks
about oseiq beTorah as in kol ha'oseiq beparashas olah kei'lu hiqrivu
qorban, and that this should apply even to mitzvos in which they are
NOT obligated (like qorbanos). Is this exclusively TSBK? It might; the
Maharil talks about men saying birkhos haTorah before reading pesuqim
they do not understand. Ayin sham.

: And then the Chofetz Chaim in his defence of Beit Ya'akov type schooling in
: Lekutei Halachot Sotah 21  writes about what used to happen in previous
: generations:

:> But it seems that all this was dafka in the times that were prior to us when
:> each on lived in the place of his fathers and the tradition of the fathers
:> was very strong by each one to go in the way that our fathers went and like
:> it says "ask your father and he shall tell you" and in this it was possible
:> to say that one should not teach Torah and rely in their practice on their
:> upright fathers.

Notice the CC is talking about mimetic chinukh, cultural absorbtion.
Which the Maharil you cited appears to be doing as well. I place more
hope on the second Maharil.

Which is why I disagree with:
: But hold on a second.  Isn't what the Chofetz Chaim is describing as the
: ideal in past times, and the Maharil describing as the correct way to teach
: women, in fact the classic definition of Torah Sheba'al peh, as it was
: taught prior to Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi writing down the Torah sheba'al peh in
: the form of the Mishna?...

Even oral, the "textual" TSBP was formal, rules and ideas, existing
rulings. An intellectual excercise, rather than an experiential one.
I don't think he is talking about Oral Transmission in general, only
when you don't know what they did or would do in a given situation to
have an example to imitate.

(Tosafos believe Rabbe compiled the mishnah; writing down didn't happen
for centuries. So what the mishnah was to the amora'im was an official
text to memorize and repeat. As in "tani tana qamei deR' ..." Not that
it really touches on our discussion.)

: So is it possible that what the Tur was actually suggesting was that what
: the Rambam wrote was impossible, because there is no way of teaching women
: to do the mitzvot in which they are obligated without Torah sheba'al
" peh...

True, but TSBP needn't be relayed by discussion of formal notions rather
than a how-to hands-on mimetic session. Making bread with mom, and she
noticed that mom made a berakhah on hafrashas challah this time. She
may ask why, etc... but it's not an "education" setting.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It is our choices...that show what we truly are,
micha at aishdas.org        far more than our abilities.
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