[Avodah] MaPoles, Chamets, YiUsh

[Micha Berger via Avodah]

On Wed, Jun 07, 2017 at 12:23:51AM +1000, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote:
: R Micha argues that this is not correct
: he suggests that if ownership hinges upon ones belief they are in control
: then it is impossible to make sense of the Machlokes re YiUsh MiDaAs
: i.e. someone loses something but is unaware it is lost
: so there is no YiUsh
: however if they would know it is lost
: they would be MeYaEsh

Rather, I was saying ownership hinges on responsibility, which I suggested
was both a consequence of and license for having actual control.

: I would suggest that there is no problem
: the Machlokes is simply a dispute about
: ACTUAL belief one is in control versus
: POTENTIAL  belief one is in control

It would help if you can find a case where
somone has potential of believing they control an item for reasons other
than having actual control, and has the din of ba'al,
OR
someone has potential to believe they lost control of an item for
reasons other than actually losing control, and does not have ba'alus.

Yi'ush is giving up on finding it again, not knowledge of loss of control,
real or potential. Let me use your example to explain how I see it:

: for example
: walking behind a fellow Yid
: you notice a diamond fall off his ring
: he would be unaware of his loss
...
: If we hold YiUsh does NOT require ACTUAL DaAs
: then you can take the diamond straight away
: because we know he WILL be MeYaEsh as soon as he discovers his loss

But this is a case where he loses actual control. The yi'ush shelo
mida'as is more of an expectation not to regain it.


Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             If you won't be better tomorrow
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