[Avodah] Maharat

[Lisa Liel via Avodah]

Noam,

It's not a "trope".  While there can be situations in which 
egalitarianism vs tradition is a false dichotomy, the current topic is 
not one of them.  Though your first example (beginning with "First of 
all") doesn't speak to the question of whether it is a false dichotomy 
or not.  It seems a poor argument, as well.  I don't believe there is 
anyone who, without the impetus of the egalitarian ethic, looked at 
halakha and said, "Biblical concepts of justice demand that we ordain 
women."

Judaism is fundamentally anti-egalitarian.  Distinctions are one of the 
hallmarks of Judaism, whether it be between kohanim and zarim or Jews 
and non-Jews or men and women.  We have never viewed having different 
roles as indicating superiority and inferiority.  That judgment is 
foreign to our tradition.  Foreign to halakha.  Foreign to the Torah.

Please note that I'm not talking about whether, given the assumption 
that having different roles conveys inferiority, one could argue in 
favor of equalizing roles in the name of justice.  I am talking about 
that assumption itself.  It is an assumption that comes from 
egalitarianism, and cannot be found in Jewish tradition, which is not 
subject to Brown v Board of Education.  Different does *not* necessarily 
mean unequal in Judaism.

Polygamy was never a "value".  To Mormons, perhaps.  Not to us.  It was 
simply something permitted.  Slavery is out of the question purely on 
dina d'malchuta dina grounds.  Were that not the case, we might still 
engage in it.  We certainly haven't changed the halakha pertaining to 
either kind of avdut (K'naani or Ivri).

You say that modern values have been the impetus for us to re-evaluate 
what we value in our Mesorah.  Can I ask where the need for such a 
re-evaluation comes from?  It was my understanding that we value all of 
our Mesorah, and do not sift through it, deciding what parts of it we 
value and what parts we do not.

Also, please note that I have specifically referred to egalitarianism, 
and *not* to feminism.  I don't believe that feminism requires 
egalitarianism, and the moves by the left to try and force Orthodox 
Judaism into an egalitarian framework have nothing to do with the basic 
idea that women are fully competent adult human beings, which is what 
feminism was originally about.

On 6/4/2017 6:48 PM, Noam Stadlan via Avodah wrote:
> Lisa Liel- please stop with the feminism/egalitarianism versus 
> tradition trope.  It is a false dichotomy.  First of all, as R. Shalom 
> Carmy wrote,  the desire for more roles for women can be attributed to 
> Biblical concepts of justice, it doesn't have to be egalitarianism.  
> More importantly, it is a simple fact of history that the balancing of 
> our Masoretic values has changed over time.  We don't value slavery or 
> polygamy as much as we used to. we value autonomy and democracy more.  
> And it is actually the 'modern values' that have been the impetus for 
> us to re-evaluate what we value in our Masorah.  Furthermore, our 
> Mesorah is more egalitarian now than before. For example, the mishna 
> in Horiyyot says that we should save the life of a man before a 
> women.  L'halacha, most don't hold that anymore.


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