[Avodah] [Areivim] L'sheim shmayim

[Lisa Liel via Avodah]

On 5/28/2017 10:34 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 10:11:02PM +0300, Lisa Liel via Avodah wrote:
>: And I disagree with you about it being a halakhic response to
>: reality...

> It's clear from Avodah's LW that that's how they see it. If there are
> other, less defensible, ideologies, that's not their problem.

I'm not sure that the views of Avodah's LW are the point.  To the extent 
that they argue in favor of those with "other, less defensible, 
ideologies", it's reasonable to argue against those "other, less 
defensible, ideologies".  And I would be willing to supply examples of 
where members of Avodah's LW do appear to see it that way, but I suspect 
such examples would be bounced as "adding more fire than light to the 
discussion".

On 5/28/2017 11:52 PM, Ben Bradley via Avodah wrote:
> 'It is extremely dangerous to attempt to use non-halakhic elements of
> Torah in a way that gives them primacy over the halakha.'

> I don't think that is what R' Micha is doing. The mitzvos such as 
> kedoshim tihyu and v'asisa hatov v'hayashar are not non-halakhic in 
> the sense of being like aggadeta.

I don't see that.  They are halakhic in the sense that they are 
commandments.

> Using aggedata to try to trump established halachos would be 
> incorrect. Rather these and other similar pesukim explicitly give the 
> value system by which the whole of Torah functions. As such they are 
> part of the framework of Torah which informs the way Chazal darshan 
> pesukim and thus arrive at the deoraisa details of mitzvos.  Most 
> often that's implicit but there are plenty of explicit examples in the 
> gemara of value based pesukim being part of the cheshbon at the 
> expense of what looks otherwise like the ikar hadin, in particular 
> dracheha darchei noam is cited.

There is an enormous difference between what the acknowledged leaders of 
all Jewry can do -- such as during the time of the Gemara -- and what 
can be done today.  When members of the left claim that brachot should 
be thrown out and other fundamental practices should be modified on the 
basis of "kavod ha-briyot", for example, they are not using "kavod 
ha-briyot" as Jews have always used it, but rather using it as a label 
to apply to external cultural norms that aren't even a century old.

> I.e. such pesukim are not non-halachic, they are meta-halachic.
> Or to put it another way the system of halacha doesn't and can not 
> operate in an ethical vacuum, even if we sometimes struggle to get how 
> the value system underlies invidual sugyas or details of sugyas. We 
> ignore meta-halachic pesukim at our peril.

The question is what you mean by "ethical vacuum".  If you mean that the 
system of halakha doesn't and can't operate without paying heed to the 
ethical imperatives of the society surrounding us, I have to 
respectfully disagree.  The ethics must themselves come from within our 
own cultural framework, based on our own traditions.

Lisa