[Avodah] Maharat

Sun May 28 17:00:02 PDT 2017

On Sun, May 28, 2017 at 10:01:37AM +0000, Ben Bradley via Areivim wrote:
:  'that a pesaq is by definition someone eligable to be a dayan,'

: Which surely most community rabbis are not, since most have yoreh yoreh but not yadin yadin.

1- Eligable, not qualified.

2- Who said one has to have Yadin Yadin to serve as a dayan? Yes, to
judge fiscal matters, we need someone who knows CM, but for someone to
decide questions of YD?

On Sun, May 28, 2017 at 04:21:20PM -0400, Akiva Miller via Areivim wrote:
: I was thinking along very similar lines. In which case, the main
: (only?) difference between the yoetzet and the community rabbi is that
: the rabbi's job also includes "masculine" roles like leadership, while
: teaching and paskening are neutral and shared.

As I wrote in every other iteratrion of this question, there is a
difference between teaching halakhah pesuqah and applying shiqul hada'as.

Someone who follows a rav's pesaq is obeying lo sasur, and therefore
did the right thing even if the rabbi's shiqul hada'as was faulty. Any
hypothetical qorban chatos would be the rabbi's. If the person is not
among those covered by mikol asher yorukha, then the qorban chatas is
yours for listening to her, not the Maharat's.

On Sun, May 28, 2017 at 02:31:52PM -0500, Noam Stadlan via Avodah wrote:
: It seems to me that the opponents of ordination of women are hiding
: behind conflation of terms. What is first needed is an understanding of
: what ordination is in this day and age. The plain meaning of the Shulchan
: Aruch YD 242:14 is that it is permission from a teacher to a student to
: instruct in issur v'heter...

I cwould use the word "hora'ah" rather than the misleading "instruct".
One does not need to have smichah to give a shiur in QSA in the same
town as one's rebbe.

...
: 3. if the teacher dies, according to SA YD 242:14, nothing further
:    is needed
: 4. the teacher gives the student permission(to avoid transgressing on
:    the prohibition of moreh l'fnei rabo)

I disagree with both of these. YD 242 is about kavod harav. IOW, it says
that such permission is necessary, but not that anyone with permission
is necessarily a rabbi. IOW, we have no indication that when the Rama
says that if the rebbe was niftar, nothing else is needed that he is
talking about anything more than needed to satisfy kavod harav ONLY.

IOW, one of these two criteria is necessary, but -- even assuming
competency is a given -- are they sufficient?

Semchiah could well be hetero hora'ah plus.

Both R/Prof Saul Lieberman and RHS argued they are not. And so it
appears from Taosafos. And since we have no indication that the Rama is
disagreeing with Torafos...

For that matter, since the form "yoreh yoreh" is peeled off of the formula
for ordaining a member of sanhderin -- "Yoreh? Yoreh! Yadin? Yadin! Yatir
bekhoros? Yatir bechoros!" -- there is sme connection to dayanus as per
Tosafos implied in the traditional ordination text itself.

...
: I would add that the entire basis for the claim that women cant get
: semicha starts with the restriction on women being witnesses, then that
: being extended to judges, and then being extended again to semicha.
: It is not necessarily a given that these extensions should be made. We
: should note that there are a number of others who are prohibited
: from being witnesses- those who lend with interest, deaf, blind, etc.
: The internet reports that there are those who were deaf that recieved
: orthodox semicha...

Deaf? To you mean cheireish, a caegory we rule refers to the uneducable
and thus does not mean today's deaf mutes? Blind? Chalitzah has a special
gezeiras hakasuv, "l'einei", specifically because a blind man is allowed
to serve as a dayan.

(And as RHS points out, geirim can be dayanim for other geirim, so we
see their disqualification to serve in most courts is not athat they
are outside of lo sosuru, but another issue.)

But I do not think those who lend with interest are kosher rabbanim.
Refardless of social ills which may cause that din to be largely ignored
in practice.

Our discussion here should not be about whether you or I agree with
the OU's priorities, but whether the shitah they are supporting in
the particular question at hand is well-founded in principle.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 47th day, which is
micha at aishdas.org        6 weeks and 5 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Hod sheb'Malchus: What is glorious about
Fax: (270) 514-1507               unity-how does it draw out one's soul?