[Avodah] Relying on the Avnei Nezer's Tenai for Afikoman

[Micha Berger via Avodah]

On Tue, Apr 04, 2017 at 12:52:45PM +0000, Professor L. Levine via Avodah wrote:
: There is a shiur about this at
: http://tinyurl.com/lowndcz

So, I am listening to R' Aryeh Lebowitz's shiur on YUTorah at this link.

He opens by saying that the afiqoman (epikomion) must be before chatzos,
and very likely the 4th cup too. So, kol hamarbeh means adding to the
END of the seder, not having a longer Maggid that will push past chatzos.

(Eg tzeis is 8:12pm in NY, as MyZmanim computes it -- 36 min as degrees,
and chatzos is 12:56. So, we're talking Qadeish to the end of Hallel in
4 hr 44 min. Unhitting pause...)

The Avnei Neizer (R Avrohom Bornsztain, the first Sochatchover Rebbe,
descendant of both the Ramah and the Shach) argues that if you are
finishing by chatzos to fulfil R Gamliel's shitah, then you could eat
other foods after chatzos. And if you are not eating the rest of the
night, that's because you're worried that if the mitzvah is indeed alkl
night (unlike RG), ein maftirin achar hapesach would also be all night.

So, the AN suggests that a moment before chatzos, eat a piece of matzah
al tenai that if the halakhah is like Rabban Gamliel, it will be your
afiqoman. Then, don't eat the minute or two until chatzos -- for R'
Gamliel's en maftirin. Then, go back to eating (as long as you finish
before alos), concluding with another afiqoman, also al tenai -- thus
fulfilling the other ein maftirin.

(BTW, note that the seder in the hagadah that went until zeman qeri'as
Shema didn't include Rabban Gamliel.)

R Meir Arik in Kol Torah uses this to answer a problematic Rashbam
(Pesachim 121). The Rashbam says you're allowed to bring qorbanos todah or
nedavah on erev Pesach. But you're not allowed to bring a qorban where you
are mema'et the zeman akhilah, and the zeman akhilah for these qorbanos
is until the morning. So how could you bring them on a day where ein
maftirin achar hapesach will limit the time in which they could be eaten?

But according to the Avnei Neizer, you can fulfill ein maftirin for both
shitos and only limit eating for a moment before chatzos, by eating that
2nd afiqoman at the last possible time.

However, there is a lot of opposition to the AN's chiddush. RALebowitz
says there are 6 questions, but he's running out of time.

1- The Baal haMaor and the Ran's explanation for why ein maftirin would
work with the AN. But the Ramban says the problem was that having so
many people needing to eat their kezayis qorban pesach bein hachomos
before chatzos, there was a worry that people would eat early, when still
famished. (Which is assur derabbanan, gezeirah maybe they'll break bones.
The question of why ein maftirin wouldn't then be a gezeira al hagezeira
was not raised in the shiur.)

Which means that even if the zeman for the qorban is until chatzos,
if people could still plan a late dinner, they could rely on that and
still eat their pesach while very hungry.

2- RMF (IM OC vol 5, pg 123) brings several objections. One basic one:
even the AN says he never saw anyone do this before. RMF found it tamuha
to rely on a sevara be'alma to change so many generations of mimeticism.

(An argument that touches on some hot topics today.)

3- RMF adds that one needs to prove that the zman akhilah and the zeman
ta'am are the same. Maybe the chiyuv of having the taste in your mouth
happens to run longer?

4- The Chasam Sofer writes against doing a mitzvah mitoras safeiq. Similar
to Rabbeinu Yonah's (on Berakhos) explanation for why an asham talui is
more expensive than a chatas. Because we need to correct the "I probably
didn't do anything wrong" attitude.

If you never know when you're fulfilling the mitzvah, kavah will be
lacking.

RALebowitz then gives eidus from R Wolf that R Willig finishes his 4th
kos right before chatzos. And timing then becomes a central theme during
the seder.

R' Avraham Pam said on many occations that we have to be aware of
those who spent all that time making the seder. (Typically the wives
and mothers.) Sometimes we spend so much time on Magid, that we then
rush through the beautiful se'udah they made to get to the last kos on
time. RAP thought that this bein adam lachaveiro issue is sufficient to
justify relying on the Avnei Neizer.


Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             You are not a human being in search
micha at aishdas.org        of a spiritual experience. You are a
http://www.aishdas.org   spiritual being immersed in a human
Fax: (270) 514-1507      experience. - Pierre Teilhard de Chardin