[Avodah] Better to die

[Micha Berger via Avodah]

On Sun, Apr 30, 2017 at 08:50:08PM +0000, Ben Bradley via Avodah wrote:
: The gemara says that this smitten man must not even even have a
: conversation through a partition with the object of his desire on pain of
: YaVY...

Yes, on the pain of yeihareig; but it's not technically YvAY because
there is no actual issur la'avor.

:                                              Since when is conversation
: hana'as issur arayos. The answer, which is surprising to us but causes
: the gemara no problem is that , even sexual hana'a from a conversation
: carries the din YvAY.

I meant that as more than a quibble. Gilui arayos is an issur that
trumps personal survival. But here it's not a matter of encountering
a greater issur. It's not even hana's issur arayos, it's hana'ah from
hirhurim.

And much the same territory as your description of the 2nd MdA:
: That's the first man d'amar. The second MdA , that we mean even a penuya,
: causes the gemara problems because there's apparently no problem of
: hana'a from a penuya, or at least certainly not involving YvAY and
: certainly not from a conversation. So mai kulei hai?
: 
: The chiddush here is that we're even gozer YvAY on hana'a from a penuya
: due to societal considerations of bnos yisrael not being hefker etc.

It's the same issur in Hilkhos De'os either way. The guy is doing nothing
assur on the arayos level; it's entirely abotu whether or not we feed the
downward character spiral.

Tie'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It is our choices...that show what we truly are,
micha at aishdas.org        far more than our abilities.
http://www.aishdas.org                           - J. K. Rowling
Fax: (270) 514-1507