[Avodah] Maharat

[Noam Stadlan via Avodah]

On Sun, Jun 4, 2017 at 3:01 PM, Lisa Liel <lisa at starways.net> wrote:
> It's not a "trope".  While there can be situations in which egalitarianism
> vs tradition is a false dichotomy, the current topic is not one of them.
> Though your first example (beginning with "First of all") doesn't speak to
> the question of whether it is a false dichotomy or not.  It seems a poor
> argument, as well.  I don't believe there is anyone who, without the
> impetus of the egalitarian ethic, looked at halakha and said, "Biblical
> concepts of justice demand that we ordain women."

> Judaism is fundamentally anti-egalitarian.  Distinctions are one of the
> hallmarks of Judaism, whether it be between kohanim and zarim or Jews and
> non-Jews or men and women.  We have never viewed having different roles as
> indicating superiority and inferiority.  That judgment is foreign to our
> tradition.  Foreign to halakha.  Foreign to the Torah.

Lisa- thanks for the response. I think you have the question framed
incorrectly. It isn't " we have to ordain women". It is, on what basis
are we denying women the opportunity to serve God and their community
in a way that they think is appropriate -- is there a Halachic reason to
do so?" It isn't an issue of being like men, it is an issue of fairness
and justice. Regarding 'modern values' and Mesorah. please read Rabbi
Walter Wurzburger, regarded as one of R. Soloveitchik's most prominent
students here:
http://download.yutorah.org/TUJ/TU1_Wurtzburger.pdf

Since chazal owned slaves and the Gemara didn't outlaw them, obviously
owning slaves was not seen as odious as it is now. I doubt that
current rabbis have the same positive view of slavery as you do. in
fact, one published author does not. see R. Gamliel Shmalo here:
http://download.yutorah.org/2013/1053/798326.pdf

Similar to polygamy, I doubt that any current rabbinical authority thinks
that polygamy should be instituted(except in the very rare situations
of heter me'ah rabbonim when in practicality there is only one wife)

Many authorities, including Rav Lichtenstein, R. Nachum Rabinovitch(and
see R. Wurzburger's article for citations to classic authorities of the
past) and others state clearly that encountering 'modern values' helps us
figure out which how to better balance the values already in our Masorah.
 And, as I pointed out, our Masorah has already moved towards
egalitarianism, as demonstrated that most MO poskim don't hold by the
Mishna in Horiyyot.

And who was denying that there are different roles? no one denies that
there are different roles for the genders. But Halacha should be the
determinant of what those differences are. Not someone saying, "well,
there have to be differences, and I am going to tell you what those
differences should be." If there are no good Halakhic arguments against
women's ordination(and there aren't), then claiming that there should
be different roles for different genders is not a coherent argument.
Basically you could use the same argument for everything and anything,
since there is no Halachic basis for it. You could say that women
shouldn't ride bikes because gender roles have to be different.