[Avodah] Maharat

[Noam Stadlan via Avodah]

R. Micha- please define Semicha as you understand it, or at least as you
understand the OU panel as defining it.  Otherwise you are just using a
nebulous term and claiming that it has meaning.

The history of semicha is clear that there is no direct relationship
between modern semicha(which more accurately should be termed neo-semichah
to make it clear) and ancient semichah(for example, see here:
http://www.encyclopedia.com/religion/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/semikhah
).  There was a period when leaders did not have semicha, The Tzitz Eliezer
points out that Sephardim for a long time did not have semichah, yet
communities had religious leaders.  So one does not need semikhah to be a
communal religious leader(in keeping with the Rama in 242:14).
Furthermore, R. Lichtenstein points out(Leaves of Faith vol 2 293)
"originally a samukh would pronounce a decision that was binding by don't
of his authoritative fiat. ...Now, he essentially serves as a reference
guide, providing reliable information about what the tradition and its
sources, properly understood and interpreted, state; but it is they, rather
than he, that bind authoritatively." (quoted in the name of the Rav, in the
name of his father, Rav Moshe.)  Furthermore, as R. Lichtenstein points
out, the Rambam viewed that Smikhah applied to hora'at issur v'heter as
well as din.  However, as R. Schachter himself points out, (see Kuntrus Ha
semicha in Eretz Hatzvi chap 32) the other Rishonim hold that Semichah is a
Halacha in beit din, NOT Hora'ah.   AND, there are lots of authorities who
clearly state that women can give Hora'ah.  So you really need to define
exactly what you mean by Semicha and how you are using it

So essentially you are taking a category of (disputed) restrictions that
apply to beit din.  That type of beit din(kenasot) doesn't exist.  The
semikhah for that type included wearing a specific garment, only being
given in Israel, and according to most(but not all), prohibited to women.
According to most Rishonim, that category did not apply to Hora'ah, just
beit din.  And, R. Lichtenstein illustrates that there is a clear and
gaping difference in authority. There have been many years and many
communities where leaders did not have any formal semikhah.   But obviously
there was some sort of Hora'ah going on.  So it is clear that Hora'ah
doesn't require semikhah, unless you want to argue that they were doing it
all illegitimately.   granting a degree of ordination was
re-established(perhaps in response to universities, perhaps other reasons,
see "The Emergence of the Professional rabbi in Ashkenzic Jewry by Bernard
Rosensweig in Tradition, especially references in note 6) and the word
Semikhah was used(although not always and not always exclusively).  But you
are arguing that somehow someway the restrictions from ancient Semikhah
still apply- well, actually you are only arguing that the restrictions on
women still apply, you have conveniently neglected to argue for the
restriction of semikhah to Eretz Yisrael, for the wearing of special
clothing, and all the other restrictions that were in place on ancient
Semikhah.  I have not had a chance to see the Maharik inside.  But just
because he applies halachot of relationships between teacher and student
doesn't seem to be a reason to generalize that everything that applied to
ancient Semikhah applies to today's neo-semikhah. That logically makes no
sense.

Lisa Liel- please stop with the feminism/egalitarianism versus tradition
trope.  It is a false dichotomy.  First of all, as R. Shalom Carmy wrote,
the desire for more roles for women can be attributed to Biblical concepts
of justice, it doesn't have to be egalitarianism.  More importantly, it is
a simple fact of history that the balancing of our Masoretic values has
changed over time.  We don't value slavery or polygamy as much as we used
to. we value autonomy and democracy more.  And it is actually the 'modern
values' that have been the impetus for us to re-evaluate what we value in
our Masorah.  Furthermore, our Mesorah is more egalitarian now than before.
For example, the mishna in Horiyyot says that we should save the life of a
man before a women.  L'halacha, most don't hold that anymore.
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