[Avodah] order of the then seder

[Micha Berger via Avodah]

On Thu, Apr 06, 2017 at 12:10:26PM -0700, saul newman via Avodah wrote:
: is there any clue as to how the seder was conducted when there was a korban
: pesach?

I assume koreikh was the norm. Not that Hillel argued they were necessary
and no one else made wraps, but that everyone made a wrap, which is why
a machloqes could arise as to whether one is yotzei if not.

: i think we all agree that the matzot to make a korech were soft matzot [and
: presumably mashiach will rule that's the way we should all be making them ].

One could be yotzei koreikh just putting a tiny lump of meat on a
cracker. Not difficult.

OTOH, we seem to have proven in numerous years that until the acharonic
period, softa matzos were the norm in every community. (Ashkenazim too;
see the Rama.)

: if the zaytim were like larger then, would the sandwich have been the size
: of a big mac? or half a pizza?

But they were smaller, so no problem.

Another perrennial is whether the growth of the kezayis is halachically
binding even after archeology proved the historical assumptions wrong.

: kiddush would have started the meal...

And Ha Lachma Anya would have been 4 days before, as you can only invite
people to join the chaburah BEFORE the sheep is set aside.

For that matter, I'm convinced Ha Lachma Anya is not part of Maggid.
Maggid ought to begin with questions, so let's assume it does. HLA
is an explanation of Yachatz. And then, once we fact out qwhat it's like
to have to ration our lachma anya, we express empathy for the dirtzrikh
and dichpin.

So perhaps Yachatz too would be before picking the sheep.

. then some form of maggid [ 3 hrs
: long? would the korban be edible that many hours later?].

Sure! How quickly does meat go bad where you live?

It looks like there is a fundamental machloqes about the seider. Notice
that Rabban Gamliel wasn't present at R' Aqiva's seider in Benei Beraq.
OTOH, in the Tosefta at the end of Pesachim Rabban Gamliel hosts big
seider in Lod, where they spent the whole night "osqin behilkhos haPesach".
(This Tosefta goes with "ein maftirin achar haPesach afiqoman". A whole
answer-to-the-chakham vibe here.)

Notice that at R' Aqiva's seider "vehayu mesaperim beytzi'as mitzrayim".
R' Aqiva held that a seider is all about the story. R' Gamliel -- the
mitzvos.

Most of Maggid we do R' Aqiva style:

1- We follow R' Yehudah, and tell the story of physical redemption. Avadim
Hayinu.

2- Then (after an intermission in which we explain why we're doing
multiple versions -- 4 banim, etc...) we follow Rav, and tell the story
of spiritual redemption. Betechilah ovedei AZ.

3- And we tell the story using Vidui Biqurim and other texts.

4- Then, at the very end, we make sure to do the least necessary to be
yotzei according to Rabban Gamliel.

So it would seem we basically hold like R' Aqiva, that the main role of
the foods is as aids to the story-telling.

But Rabban Gamliel would have Maggid as /during/ the other mitzvos of
the seider. We discuss the foods.

: washed and then what?  hamotzi on 3 matzos? but the mitzva matza  was to
: eat the korech no?   so the rest of the meal was not matza followed by
: marror, but rather that of korech.  so then the chiyuv-matza was the
: afikoman matza?  or people would have chazon ish'ed it up twice---at the
: matza they washed on and again on korech?

The afiqoman was the sheep, all matzos umorerim. Before that was the
chagiga, re'iyah and shulchan oreikh.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

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