[Avodah] A Variation on the Four Sons

[Micha Berger via Avodah]

On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 09:23:05AM -0400, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote:
: I wrote they are the questions of the SIMPLE son.
: What is your source that they are the questions "that the father
: prompts the fourth son to ask?"

First, logic... They are in the book, not spontaneous questions asked by
a wise or purehearted (or simple) son, nor the challenges of a wicked one.
They're prompted.

Second, the Yerushalmi.

The Mishnah (Pesachim 10:4) says: "They mix him the 2nd cup, and here
the son asks. If the son lacks the da'as to ask, his father teaches him
'Mah Nishatanah..." (Full text ellided.)

The Y-mi (vilna 70b) quotes R Chiyas as saying "Keneged 4 banim",
although in their version, #3 is a tipeish, and the Rasha makes
a point of talking about the annual tircha. Then, when answering the
She'eino Yodeia Lish'ol:
    At petach lo techilah.
    R Yusah said: The mishnah says as much: If there is insufficient
    da'as in the son, his father teaches him.

So R' Yusah explicitly links the mishnah's Mah Nishatanah to the 4th son.

OTOH, the Bavli (116a) appears to treat Mah Nishtanah as a separate text,
unrelated to sons asking real questions:
    If he is a chakham, the son asks him; and if he is not a chakham,
    his wife asks him; and if not, he asks himself. Even two talmidei
    chakhamim that know the laws of Pesach ask each other.

(I assume the "he is a chakham" refers to the son, and if the son can't
learn Mah Nishtanah, the wife says them.)

Seemingly, Mah Nishtanah not the same topic as the questions of the
four sons, as they need be said at every seder, even if you have to
"ask" yourself.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             When we are no longer able to change a situation
micha at aishdas.org        -- just think of an incurable disease such as
http://www.aishdas.org   inoperable cancer -- we are challenged to change
Fax: (270) 514-1507      ourselves.      - Victor Frankl (MSfM)