[Avodah] prof berger

[Micha Berger via Avodah]

On Wed, Mar 08, 2017 at 09:04:03AM -0800, saul newman wrote:
: 1.   where is  there  data  that  thos e 'praying to the rebbe '  are a mi'ut
: delo shekhiachah?  at least at the Ohel , doubt that's true...

It's not data, it's anecdotal. But pretty broad consensus of anecdote-based
confusion. (Except among on-line discussion, where cynicism and criticism
are overly popular.)

But lots of people daven at a qever; that's no a Chabad thing. One would
have to prove those at the LR's Ohel are doing something significantly
different.

: 2.  as to the nature of Gd/Rebbe/Atzmus,  ask the OU whether they still
: question L shochtim about their theology before allowing them on an OU line

Assuming my explanation of the concept describes what the vast majority
believe, or something close to it, there is no need.

: 3.  when did the cited talmud passages become non-normative? ...

YOu didn't say what was cited, just that they exist.

The famous "i min mesaya" (Sanhedrin 98b) is usually understood in light
of the next words "hu KEGON Daniel eish Chamudos" -- not that moshiach is
from among the dead, but who from among the dead can he be compared to.
(Eg Rashi's lishnah acharina "im yeish dugmaso bechayim...", the Maharal,
the Ben Ish Hai.) The LR says it's about gilgul, not the person actually
returning in the sense the messianists mean. See Liqutei Sichos #35, Vayigash
3, fn 6 <http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pagefeed/hebrewbooks_org_15959_218.pdf>.

There is a parallel Y-mi (Berakhos 2:4, vilna 17a):
    Rabanan amerei:
    Ahen malka meshicha
    In mi chaya hu, David shemeih
    In mi demikhaya hu, David shemeih
R' Tachnuma then cites Tehillim 18 as a prooftext, "ve'oseh chesed
limshicho leDavid". Then the discussion goes on suggesting Tamach or
Menchachem as his name.

The Penei Moshe has "ve'im min hameisim hu yihyeh David atzmo".

But the Zohar (Lekh Lekha 135) paraphrases it as "and if he is from
the neshamos haniftarim". Which is more like the LR.

And in neither gemra is this the last word in the sugya.

First peshat in Rashi would have Rav saying that Daniel or the like
could come back from the dead to be mashiach. But it's drowned out
by those who couldn't accept the naive read -- even by Rashi himself.

: had already christified the Empire before talmud was codified.  was it when
: the first jews first landed in Europe and were told to swear allegiance to
: a ressurected messiah?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "I hear, then I forget; I see, then I remember;
micha at aishdas.org        I do, then I understand." - Confucius
http://www.aishdas.org   "Hearing doesn't compare to seeing." - Mechilta
Fax: (270) 514-1507      "We will do and we will listen." - Israelites