[Avodah] Mesorah?

[Micha Berger via Avodah]

On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 05:48:59AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
: In Shiurim L'zecher Aba Mori Z"L, R'YBS posits (see page 230) that in a
: difference of opinion concerning a Halacha Moshe Misinai, if one side has
: a kabbalah (tradition) and the other doesn't, the decision is always in
: favor of the side with the tradition. [Me - assumption being a tradition
: must be correct and not a transmission error?] Whey then would we not
: apply the same logic with a Gzeira Shava...

I suggested in the early years of this list (last millenium CE) that
there was a time when GS did not require a mesorah. Just that over time,
we lost the details necessary to employ the laws of derashah for ourselves.
So, first all forms of derashah were open. Then, by the time we get to
Peachim 66a / Niddah 18b, we forgot too much about how to identify when
two words can be utilized, so they accepted gezeiros shava that were
from before the forgetting, but not mei'atzmo.

And then, later in history, the art to more forms of derashah were lost,
until derashos were stopped being made at all, except as asmachtos.

BTW, in the Y-mi Pesachim 39a, the limitation means one can only use
gezeiros shava that support an otherwise reached conclusion:
    Rabbi Yosah bei Rabbi Bon amar besheim R' Ba bar Memel:
	Adam dan GS leqayeim talmudo,
	ve'ein adam dan GS levatel talmudo

    Rabbi Yosi bei Rabbi Bon besheim Rabbi Ba Bar Memel:
	Adam dan qal vechomer le'atzmo
	ve'ein adam dan GS le'atzmo.
	Lefikhakh, mashivin miQvC, ve'ein moshivin mGS.

If that's too much translitation to wade through, try here:
http://www.sefaria.org/Jerusalem_Talmud_Pesachim.39a.2?lang=bi&with=all&lang2=en

Which Rashi says (Pesachim 66a) "ela im kein lomdo meirabo" is the intent
of the Bavli too -- only if he learned the halakhah from his rebbe can
he make a GS for it. Not lechadeish halakhah. But new gezeiros shavah
could be coined, if only for a confirmation.

So gezeiros shava needn't be ish mipi ish from MRAH.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Man is a drop of intellect drowning in a sea
micha at aishdas.org        of instincts.
http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507