[Avodah] yaakov vs yehuda

[Micha Berger via Avodah]

On Tue, Jan 03, 2017 at 08:10:24AM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
:                                                 But in this case we
: have no information that Yehuda ever said the person with the cup
: would die.

I think RSN had in mind 44:9. "Asher yimatzei ito mei'vadekha vameis".
And it really says "with the cup", not "stole the cup".

I think Zev's distinction is still valid, though. Look at the rest of the
pasuq:, "vegam anachnu nihyeh ladoni la'avadim". Yehudah was not saying
that heaven should cause that person to die, but was acknowledging the
viceroy's right to have him killed, just as he would enslave the others
as accomplices.

Meanwhile, I understand what I took to be RnIE's point. This business
with HQBH fulfilling the words of tzadiqim still has to deal with the
culpability of the one dying. Perhaps Binyamin's total innocence would
have been enough to trump a tzadiq's words.

(TO gild that lily: Not only was Binyamin innocent of this crime,
Binyamin was one of the four people who had no sin of his own to cause
his death, and only died because of Adam's. The man literally never
sinned!)

Last, what about a third, simple balebatishe, answer. Yehudah was a great
tzaddiq. But the avos are the merkavah, Yaaqov's face is on the kisei
hakavod, etc... Is it so hard to believe that for all his greatness,
Yehudah still didn't reach his father's level?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Life is complex.
micha at aishdas.org                Decisions are complex.
http://www.aishdas.org               The Torah is complex.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                                - R' Binyamin Hecht