[Avodah] Mourning an Abusive Parent

[Micha Berger via Avodah]

On Wed, Aug 31, 2016 at 08:47:43PM -0400, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote:
: If an adult child murders his parents, is he mechuyav to sit shiva for
: them? I know that sounds ridiculous but since it can happen, what is
: the halacha?

Why does it sound ridiculous? He has *more* need to be taught to regret
their loss. And in any case, as we have seen, there is a kibud av va'eim
element to mourning one's parent, and thereby an element of bein adam
laMaqom (BALM). However, for the first reason, I would think that someone
would be obligated to sit shiv'ah for a sibling, spouse or child that
they murdered even without the BALM angle.

: My second question is: Can you learn Torah from a known pedophile?

In a move that I am sure will surprise noone, let me quote from the
instroduction to Shaarei Yosher. I believe he is saying that it is
only someone who knows enough in comparison to the teacher that they
can sift out the chaffe and take the flour, as the gemara describes
R' Meir's relationship with Acher.

But I agree with the point I think you're implying -- Torah isn't math.
If the person is not showing the Torah's influence, the information you
get from him must perforce be tainted.

    But to my mind it is worth knowing and contemplating what our Sages
    said on Chagiga folio 15b. How could Rabbi Meir receive Torah from
    the mouth of Acheir [the former Rabbi Elisha ben Avuya, after he
    became a heretic]? Doesn't Rabba bar bar Chana quote R' Yochanan
    [in Chagiga as saying] "What does it mean when it says For the
    kohein's lips should keep knowledge; they should see Torah from
    his lips, for he is the angel of Hashem, L-rd of Hosts" (Malachi
    2:7)? If the rav is similar to an angel of Hashem, L-rd of Hosts,
    seek Torah from his mouth. And if not, do not seek Torah from his
    mouth." And the Talmud concludes, "There is no question -- this
    [Rabbi Meir studying under Acheir] is with someone great, this
    [the verse] is of someone of smaller stature."

    It is worth understanding according to this how Rabbi Yochanan spoke
    without elaboration, since he speaks only of the smaller statured,
    not the greats. One may say that we should be exacting in that
    Rabbi Yochanan said, "seek Torah from his mouth" and not "learn from
    him". For in truth, one who learns from his peer does not learn from
    the mouth of the person who is teaching him, but listens and weighs
    on the scales of his mind, and then he understands the concept. This
    is not learning "from the mouth of" his teacher, but from the mind
    of the teacher. "Torah from the mouth" is only considered accepting
    the concepts as he heard them, with no criticism. And it was by this
    idea that Rabbi Yochanan spoke about accepting Torah from the mouth
    [i.e. uncritically] only if the rabbi is similar to an angel of
    Hashem, L-rd of Hosts.

    And according to this, in Rabbi Yochanan's words is hinted a
    distinction between who is of smaller stature and who is great. The
    one of smaller stature will learn Torah from the mouth, for he is
    unable to decide what to draw near and want to keep away. Whereas a
    person of great stature who has the ability to decide [critically]
    does not learn Torah from [someone else's] mouth.

    Similarly, it's appropriate to alert anyone who contemplates the books
    of acharonim that they should not "learn Torah from their mouths",
    they shouldn't make a fundamental out of everything said in their
    words before they explore well those words.

    Something similar to a reminder of this idea can be learned from what
    the gemara says in Bava Metzia, chapter "One Who Hires Workers". Rabbi
    Chiya said, "I made it so that the Torah would not be forgotten
    from Israel." It explains there that he would plant linen, spread
    out nets [made of tat linen, thereby] hunt deer, made parchment
    [of their hides], and wrote [on them] chumash texts. This hints that
    whatever is in our power to prepare from the beginning of the Torah,
    it is incumbent on us to do ourselves, according to the ability that
    was inherited to us to explore and understand. And not to rely on
    the words of the gedolim who preceded us.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Our greatest fear is not that we're inadequate,
micha at aishdas.org        Our greatest fear is that we're powerful
http://www.aishdas.org   beyond measure
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Anonymous