[Avodah] derabbanan

[Micha Berger via Avodah]

On Sun, Jun 19, 2016 at 03:37:42PM +0300, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
:> REWasserman Hy"d basically says "lamah li qera, sevara hi?"

: which again seems to make every derabanan a deoraisa

I think quite the reverse. His saying that we follow the rabbis because
not heading their advice would be stupid does not actually make the
derabbanan mandatory.

And I still think the Ramban is saying that the power of chazal to
legislate is from lo sasur, but that does not elevate the product of
their legislation to deOraisa. Thus his repeated reference to "zeh halav"
in distinction to "'lo sasur' keshe'ar halavin shelaTorah". This makes
a strong contrast to R' Mesamyah's position, "sheyeish bikhlal lav
de-'lo sasur' kol mah shhu midivrei chakhamim..."

One might employ parallel logic to REW's shitah, if it proves necessary.

Remember that the Ramban's central problem isn't the same as the one which
led us to this discussion. He is defending the idea that "lo sasur" is
one of the 613, but (unlike the Behag) the particular mitzvos derabbanan
are not each counted among them. Safeiq derabbanan lequlah is tangential
to his main point, and more noted than explained.


Also, I repeatedly contrasted the Meshekh Chokhmah's position (Devarim
17:11), that mitzvos derabbanan are "pragmatic", meaning the iqar
is obedience, as opposed to conforming to Retzon Hashem, which I
characterized as having metaphysical effect - or avoiding negtive effects.

And since they're about obedience, borderline cases like safeiq derabbanan
which are not rebellious can be meiqil, we do not have to worry about
spiritual damage. If the mitzvah had inherent value aside from obedience,
safeiq derabbanan lequlah would be a license to play Russian Roullete.

I realized Retzon Hashem could also be framed less mystically in terms
of desired ethics / relationship with Him, whether an asei to foster
them or a lav to avoid flaws (a more rationalistic take on spiritual
damage that is probably describing the same thing). Values and virtues.

And in this formulation, there is no clear line between laws that Chazal
would set up to implement a general deOraisa din (eg pirsumei nisa and
ner Chanukah) and laws that implement His values. The broader mitzvos
get kind of mussar-y / valu-ish. Like ve'asisa hayashar vehatov.


On a related topic, 20 agurot from AhS Yomi. YD 201:206 (there are
218 se'ifim in the siman).

There is a question whether a miqvah where most of the water is mayim
she'uvim is pasul deOraisa or derabannan, or if even a miqvah that is
entirely mayim she'uvim is "only" pasul miderabbanan. 3 positions:
pasul deOraisa at rov, pasul deOraisa when there is entirely she'uvim,
or never pasul deOraisa. The pesul derabbnan starts at 3 log is they were
poured in before the 40 se'ah were complete; rov otherwise -- unless rov
is deOraisa

The Toras Kohanim learns the pesul of mayim she'uvim from "akh ma'yan
uvor miqeih mayim" just as a maayan is made by G-d, so must the gathered
water of a miqvah.

But it is possible that this is an asmachta, or that it's a derashah
about using actual tamei keilim but generalizing to she'uvim is asmachta,
or... (See se'if 17)

Now the relevant bit.  In se'if 210, the AhS opines (nir'eh LAD) that
because there is an asmachta, we cannot simply say safeiq derabbanan
lequlah. Thus ruling out the Rambam's idea that asmachtos are just
mnemonic and polemic tools; he is saying they actually change the authority
of the derabbanan.

And if could change whether the iqar is obedience, limiting that
possibility only to dinim derabbanan that have no asmachtos. IFF RYME
buys into that idea at all.


Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Like a bird, man can reach undreamed-of
micha at aishdas.org        heights as long as he works his wings.
http://www.aishdas.org   But if he relaxes them for but one minute,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      he plummets downward.   - Rav Yisrael Salanter