[Avodah] Does Bat Mitsva girl continue counting during Sefira

[Micha Berger via Avodah]

On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 11:13:32AM +0000, Aryeh Frimer via Avodah wrote:
: RMH wrote me off-net as follows: "While understanding that she
: wasn't Chayiv m'Shum Chinuch, she's also not Chayiv post Bat Mitzvah,
: and never will be Chayav...

I am wondering if the chiyuv of chinukh to follow minhagim may be more
binding than any minhag itself. If she is counting because that's what
women in her eidah do, poerhaps her post-bat mitzvah chiyuv is *less*.

: To this I responded: IMHO, there is a fundamental misunderstanding here
: regarding a women's recitation of berakhot on Misvot asei she-hazeman
: geramman (time determined commandments). As explained by Tosafot (Tosafot,
: Eruvin 96a-b, s.v. "dilma.") and Rabbenu Nissim [Hiddushei haRan, Rosh
: haShana 33a; Ran on Rif, Rosh haShana 33a; Ran on Rif, Kiddushin 31a.] a
: woman can make such a berakha because although it is voluntary there is
: a kiyyum haMitsva (proper fulfillment of the mitsvah) and she receives
: heavenly reward. Accordingly, she may also pronounce the attendant
: berakhot...

And because "asher qidishanu bemitzvosav vetzivanu" is a statement about
HQBH commanding the tzibur, so there is no sheqer inan einah metzuvah
ve'osah saying "vetzivanu".

For that matter, how does making a berakhah on a mitzvah performed for
chinukh work?

And returning to the case of an edah where women are nohagos to count
the omer, an Ashkenaziah would make a berakhah on a minhag too.

On Fri, Jun 03, 2016 at 12:58:08PM +0300, Saul Mashbaum via Avodah wrote:
:                               If a pre-Bat Mitzva girl can make a
: bracha on sefirat haomer, her count is clearly a kiyum mitzvah
: (otherwise she could not make a bracha) , and thus she should be able
: to continue counting with a bracha after becoming Bat Mitzva, her
: chiyuv-level not having changed.

If in all cases, she is making a berakhah on the tzibur's command, and
perhaps the over la'asiyasah is what triggers why say the berakhah now
rather than some other time. I think the list of sources RAF provides
speak more to what constitutes a trigger for saying the berakhah than
what the berakhah is on. And lemaaseh, chinukh, minhag and einah metzuvah
ve'osah are each sufficient for Ashkenazios.


:                                    ... [R Asher Weis] then explains as
: follows (my formulation): There are mitzvot in which the action
: (peula) constitutes the mitzvah, and there are those in which the
: result (totzaa) is the mitzvah, the action being the means to
: achieving the purpose of the mitzvah, the result alone constituting
: avodat Hashem...

Sounds like a sibling to the Brisker gavra vs cheftzah. Whether the gavra
has to do the pe'ulah, or the tzotza'ah must take effect onthew cheftzah

...
: My application of the above: Even if a minor is not obligated in a
: mitzvah in which the totzaa is the kiyum kamitzva, if he does it, the
: mitzvah has been done (for example , mistaber if a katan made a
: maakeh, the owner of the house has fulfilled his obligation, as is
: definitely true if a non-Jew made a maakeh). Thus, when a katan
: counts, he has achieved on the personal level the mitzvah of sefira
: (he knows the proper count, which he expresses by counting) ...

Yeah, but it's not only the child counting, it's the child's mind which
knows the count. Kind of like the non-Jew made the maaqah, but on his
own home!

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 46th day, which is
micha at aishdas.org        6 weeks and 4 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Netzach sheb'Malchus: How can some forms of
Fax: (270) 514-1507                         "unity" be over domineering?