[Avodah] Rav Sharki on university students

[Micha Berger via Avodah]

On Tue, May 03, 2016 at 02:35:38AM -0400, Rn Toby Katz via Avodah wrote:
: Well yeah, that's a frequently given piece of theodicy. A world  without
: Nazis is a world of robots, not people. There would be no moral  agents
: for good to happen to. And thus no real good in the universe at  all.
: 
: But it only explains the evil people do. Not congenital birth  defects
: and other such natural evils. 

: I think these are two different categories -- "evil" and "suffering."

Yes, but fixing my misspeech doesn't change my point. To apply the
correction:
Well yeah, that's a frequently given piece of theodicy. A world without
Nazis is a world of robots, not people. There would be no moral agents
for good to happen to. And thus no real good in the universe at all.

But it only explains suffering that is caused by the evil people do. Not
congenital birth defects and other such naturally caused suffering.

: none that are fully satisfying to us. Ultimately we just have to accept that 
: we are limited creatures and can never fully fathom His mind.

Does that necessarily mean we cannot know His Goals either, or only how
they play out in practice? IOW, perhaps we can conclude that HYashem
wants a world of hatavah, including being meitiv us with the joy of being
able to be meitivim ourselves, without knowing why that means He would
choose providing Tov in one case and why He left us on our own in another.


: The second category, what you call "natural evils," really should not be 
: called evil at all...

True, but if we correct my language, then the question too needs correction:
How is the existence of *suffering* consistent with the Existence of an
Omniscient Omnipotent and Omnibenevolent G-d?

: which apply to different situations. Atonement for sin and purification of 
: the soul are just two reasons but there are many others we can think of, as 
: well as Divine reasons we can't think of.

Including free will. For all I know, Hashem lets certain diseases foster
because He Wants to give us the opportunity to cure them. That does not
address His Choice of victims, though.

I suggested four answers to theodicy, keneged arba banim:

The chakham doesn't really answer it, he instead asks "How does Hashem
want me to respond?"

The rasha gets yisurim as punishment. In the Haggadah we tell him that its not the tragedy that is leading him to rejecting G-d  its his rejection of G-d that led him to the tragedy.

The tam gets yisurim shel ahavah. He didn't do anything wrong, but he is
shaken out of the rut that keeps him from trying to be a chakham.

And the she'eino yodea' lish'ol gets the life he does because, well,
there are times where the thing we want is a greater nisayon, than the
situation we find tragic. And if we are not up to the challenge, if its
a test that we couldn't pass, G-d doesn't make us face it.

I say it better and with more backing at
http://www.aishdas.org/asp/pesach-5761-the-four-sons-confront-tragedy

But my point in my earlier post wasn't whether or not theodicy is answeable,
but that the issue of theodicy was simply ignored by the philosophy professor
giving the online course I pointed to.

Which, in turn, was why I thought that a translation of something R Sherky
said to university students (repeated from Twitter) requires more
examiunation of the original. To repeat (since I find this topic more
useful than trying to answer tzadiq vera lo):

: What should a student do when people ask him questions on emunah and
: he doesn't have an answer?
: RS: Teach your tongue to say "I don't know". That's fine. Afterwards
: he needs to search for the answer.

: And if he has questions about which he can't find an answer?
: RS: Then he should be a kofer, the Rav answered simply. If a student
: concludes that the Torah isn't true, why should he remain a
: believer?

"Can't find"? This professor of philosophy missed a huge theological
topic. My guess is that "lo nimtza" was translated overly literally
and RYS was replying to questioned for which no answer exists.

And yes, someone should be intellectually honest enough to give up
his religion if it really were disproven. An impossible hypothetical
(we know a Torah-follower's religion won't ever really be disproven,
beyond minor misunderstood peratim); so not very meaningful, but not
something it would shock me to hear a rav say.

: Today my Creator gave me a toothache and a painful flare-up of arthritis. 
: But He also gave me fresh air to breathe, bright red flowers in my garden, 
: a beautiful blue sky, food, water, shelter and clothing, a dentist, Advil, 
: and also wine, coffee and chocolate. I did not want to question whether I 
: really deserved the chocolate, the coffee and the flowers so I refrained 
: from asking whether I deserved the toothache and the arthritis, although I 
: did ask Him to take them away. 

I said something similar recently about "lir'os es atzmo ke'ilu
hu yatza miMitzrayim" <http://www.aishdas.org/asp/you-too-left-mitzrayim>.
I wrote about how the RBSO put into process even before I was born
events that caused my lymphoma to be diagnosed while still in stage
1, BH and ba"h. A rare form of lymphoma that (as of 2010) had only
afflicted two other people, both rescue workers who helped look
for their comrade's remains in the weeks after 9/11. Here's just
the post-script:

   To be intellectually honest: The story loses some of its impact if you
   think about Office Ryan and Firefighter Endicott's families, who lost
   their love ones specifically because they were determined to give other
   rescue workers' families the closure of being able to make a funeral.
   On 9/11 itself, for every story retold of someone who was spared being
   there because they were out doing some mitzvah is a story of someone
   who seems no less deserving who was killed in the attack.

   Every life has its own story.

   I cannot know G-d's calculus in my own, never mind in others'.

   But the mystery of tzadiq vera lo (why the righteous suffer) doesn't
   free me from feeling grateful for the good in my life (hakaras hatov)
   and feeling thankful to the ones -- or in this case the One -- who
   provide it (hoda'ah).

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 10th day, which is
micha at aishdas.org        1 week and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Tifferes sheb'Gevurah: When does strict
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  judgment bring balance and harmony?