[Avodah] Cannot taste the bitterness

Micha Berger via Avodah avodah at lists.aishdas.org
Tue Apr 12 15:30:02 PDT 2016


On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 05:28:24PM -0400, David Wacholder via Avodah wrote:
: Cannot taste the bitterness
:    3. The son asks -  why tonight only bitter [kulo maror].  He just ate
:    bitter herbs, and he wants to know why no sweet herbs were offered after
:    kiddush.
:    4. The Mishnah implies that Maror was eaten right after Kiddush...

Matzah too? And the qorban Pesach?

Or, the mishnah implies that there was no fixed hagafah yet -- as we
see from our Magid appearing as a collection of statements made in
machloqes. No tanna actually says that we should say all of our Maggid;
it's a follow everyone amalgamation.

In an unscripted seder (is it a seder if the script didn't exist yet? how
mesudar was is?) the son could have asked his questions at any point.
And not even necessarily 4 in a row.

Apparantly the Mah Nishtanah follows Hillel, or otherwise it is weird that
matzah would come before marror. If, how ever, the child saw both at the
same time, the sequence in the mishnah is not temporal.

:                                                             When Matza was
:    just unrisen Pita bread, and they held a practice session for the Korban in
:    the Mikdash, they likely ate only fire roasted lamb like the esteemed
:    Thaddeus of Rome.

Was? My softmatza.com order is due tomorrow. Ashkenazim probably stopped
only a century to a few centuries ago -- the Rama's "no thicker than a
tefach" isn't describing a brick. Teeth can only do so much!

:    6. Apologies - why eat this possibly infested bitter herbs, requiring
:    dipping into vinegar or sharp charoseth...

I know there is a machloqes about what kappa is, including some kind
of worm, Rashi and Rashbam say it's something in / or about the sap.

The wild lettuce in Israel, Lactuca serriola, "prickly lettuce" (wiki:
<http://j.mp/1YsoVbL>). It is the closest wild relative of cultivated
lettuce (Lactuca sativa). The plant is named Lactuca from the same root
as "lactose", and is in the dandelion tribe of the daisy family -- a
milkweed. Prickly lettuce has soporific properties, milder than opium.
It is also a mild diuretic. Vinegar (or any other acid) will neutralize
the alkaloids in the milky sap.

So, given Rashi, I would assume that's what kappa is about.

...
:    11. The Yerushalmi is quoted as debating whether Sweet Chassa is validly
:    Maror; bitter Chassa is certainly valid.  Are these species which will at
:    some time later become bitter? Or must they be bitter even now as the 4
:    sons taste it ?

To clarify: that's the Y-mi's question that gets two answers, not a
question on the Y-mi's debate.

...
:    13. Kale is related to the cabbages, as is horseradish. See Chochmas
:    Shlomo - ibid in the margin - eloquently defending a sfeik sfeika - double
:    doubt - justifying any bitter tasting herb.

As per the above, dandelions may be our closest option. Look at the picture
on wikipedia -- similar leaves and flowers, although the plant is far
taller and thicker than any dandelion I've seen.

As you note -- also related: chicory.

Thus reinforcing the idea -- a chiddush to those of us who grew up on
horseradish -- that maror is bitter, not "burning hot".

And you can abandon chasah and eat endive, which is indeed bitter.

:    14. My problem is - the winds of the discussion imply palpable
:    bitterness on the tongue, not just associated projection...

Except for the other opinion in the Y-mi, which makes it clear that the
point is the projection.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             For those with faith there are no questions.
micha at aishdas.org        For those who lack faith there are no answers.
http://www.aishdas.org                     - Rav Yaakov of Radzimin
Fax: (270) 514-1507



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