[Avodah] listening to governments and derabbanan

[Eli Turkel via Avodah]

I am responding on avodah to some remarks on arevim
> So if the health minister happens to be ... anti-vaxx ..., suddenly the
> halacha has to turn around?! And after the next election it turns around
> again?! Look at what happened in Israel two years ago, when German
> was health minister and decided to end fluoridation. Now Litzman is
> restarting it. Was everyone supposed to change their minds in those two
> years, or accept that the truth changed, just because the government did?!

This completely misunderstands the role of government rules. Besides
dina de-malchuta we learn that if not for the government we would live
in anarchy everyone decides for themselves what is best.

Medieval philosophers and commentaries debate why one must listen
to the government. Opinions range from divine rights to the king can
kick you out to more modern theories that the citizens accept the rule
by staying in the country and especially by accepting privileges from
the government like the use of roads, army, schools etc. In consonance
with the Mishna we listen to the government because without it there is
chaos. The government specifies safety laws, traffic laws, tries thieves
and murderers, has laws against sexual and drug abuse There is nothing
in these theories about the government always being right.

Obviously, governments are made from people who make decisions and
different countries have different laws some more liberal and some more
conservative. However in each country one is required by HALACHA to follow
the government regulations (as long as they don't conflict with halacha).
If the regulations change over time then yes the observant Jew much change
his behavior just as he changes when doctors change their views or when
a bet din changes their views. When batei dinim in different locales
disagree then each community must follow their local bet din. Pointing
out that a different bet din disagrees doesn;t matter one must follow
the local bet din.

Bottom line as the Arukh Hashulchan points out in many areas the
government regulations are the substitute for the bet din who are not
knowledgeable to set standards in health, safety and other such areas.

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In a related matter I have been attending for a while shiurim of R Michael
Avraham on logic. The topic that he just began is the requirement to
listen to rabbis. Rambam relies on the pasuk "lo tassur". Ramban disagrees
and says that if so then every derabban becomes a de-oraita. RMA points
out that the more difficult shita is actually the Ramban. He offers no
alternative to the Rambam.

Some possibilites that have been offered include

1) There is a mitzvat aseh to listen to the rabbis

2) It is based on logic similar to above, otherwise it leads to chaos
He went into a side discussion of the status of sevara (deoraita?) and
a Rav Akiva Eiger.

3) The rabbis are smarter than us and so we should listen.

RMA points out that there is an intrinsic problem. If the reason is too
good then we are back to question that it becomes a deoraita. If it is
weak then listening to the rabbis becomes wishy-washy, ie if circumstances
change, if one disagrees with their reasoning etc.

-- 
Eli Turkel