[Avodah] ___melech, ____malach

[Micha Berger via Avodah]

On Thu, Mar 10, 2016 at 01:32:19PM +0200, Lisa Liel via Avodah wrote:
: On 3/10/2016 12:19 AM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
: >On Wed, Mar 09, 2016 at 12:45:44PM -0800, saul newman via Avodah wrote:
: >: 2] if any other answer  is inserted ,  is the result kefira?

: >For Jews, Yes. Shituf is not a violation of Beris Noach.

: This would not be shituf.

You are right, I can't keep the translation of the words straight in
my head separate from the obvious implication of using that particular
pseudo-pasuq. It is not natural to assume they are talking about a king
who would never die. (Or if you fell in the blank with "Beis David",
a never-ending dynasty.)

Or, maybe fill in the blank with "Beis David", which isn't ruling right now,
but has ruled and will rule. I certainly wouldn't be heresy to say they

Also, to give context, the Avodah discussion was launched in response to
an off-list email send to about 2 dozen people or so. I think people were
afraid the mod would reject their message if context were included. I
am pretty sure the mod will let my own post through, so...

The case that launched the conversation was one we believe was about
Tzfatim, extreme messianists who self-identify with Lub but the vast
majority of Lub -- even of Lub messianists -- disown.

On the wall of a matzah bakery were banners with Yechi and "HaRebbe
Melekh..." on them, along with a another line.

And that context too colors my perception of the question beyond the
generic way the question was asked. I was really repeating what I said
off-list: that saying their rebbe rules, ruled and will rule / is king,
was king, will always be king le'olam va'ed was indeed meant as
shituf.

And last, "le'olam va'ed" implies lema'alah min hazman. We use ledor
vadaor when we mean "for the rest of history". E.g. "... umemshaltekha
bekhol dor vador", in contrast to "malkhusekha malkhus kol olamim".
That too colored my answer.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Worrying is like a rocking chair:
micha at aishdas.org        it gives you something to do for a while,
http://www.aishdas.org   but in the end it gets you nowhere.
Fax: (270) 514-1507