[Avodah] Moshiach Ben Yosef

[Isaac Balbin via Avodah]

On 4 Mar 2016, at 1:30 PM, Zev Sero <zev at sero.name> wrote:
> On 03/03/2016 09:10 PM, Isaac Balbin wrote:
>> You are mixing chezkas and real.

> I don't understand what you mean by that.   Also, I don't know exactly
> which text you're replying to.  Please in future quote what you're
> replying to, and put it *before* your reply, so people can follow the
> thread of argument.

What is the point of the nomenclature B'Chezkas Moshiach. If I've done
NOTHING, I might come back and then do the job.

>> Why bother even telling us about chezkas!
>> Waste of time. Chazoko goes when dead

> Yes, it does, since a dead person is incapable of doing the things
> Moshiach is meant to do.  That's precisely his point.  But it doesn't
> change the fact that there *was* a valid chazaka.

And what, pray tell, is the significance of this Chazaka? Chazaka has
a practical upshot.

> On reflection I no longer agree 100% with what RMB wrote, because he's
> assuming that whether a person is or isn't the Moshiach is already
> determined and known to Heaven, just as whether a piece of meat is
> kosher or treif.  But whether someone will end up being the moshiach
> isn't determined.  It depends on future events.  

No, it depends on NOW. If a person performs what they are meant to
perform, they are Moshiach. What's the deal with telling us someone was
a great fighter once, so he was on the way?

> Bar Kochva was meant
> to be the one, and was derailed by sins (the Rambam is ambiguous about
> whose sins).  So the chazaka isn't just a description of the state of
> our knowledge, but also refers to the metzius.

That's an EXAMPLE. The Gemora also gives examples of people who COULD
HAVE been Moshiach. Eg. Daniel. That they weren't is because they are
dead and didn't do the job!