[Avodah] What was the point of Avrahams tefilla/debate with Hashem about Sdom?

[Marty Bluke via Avodah]

On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 12:02 AM, Micha Berger <micha at aishdas.org> wrote:
> To follow the general mehalekh of RSRH and RYBS on tefillah...

> RQBH will do what's best, regardless of pleading.
...
> But from this perspective, a chance of success is not necessarily
> part of Avraham's calculus altogether. It is more about leaning on
> Hashem as part of my support system than expecting something out
> of it.

I understand all that, my problem is with Avraham making logical arguments
to Hashem. To pay even beg for clemency is one thing, to try to persuade
Hashem with logical arguments is a whole different ball game.



On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 8:40 PM, Zev Sero <zev at sero.name> wrote:
> On 11/01/2015 04:11 AM, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote:
>> Did he really think he could influence Hashem's decision with
>> logical/emotional arguments?

> Yes, he did.

> How does this fit into our general understanding of Tefilla?

> I don't know about your general understanding of tefllah, but it fits
> perfectly into my general understanding of it.   Us'shuvah, usfilah,
> utzdakah maavirin es roa` hagezerah.

Tefilla is making logical arguments to Hashem as to why he is doing the
wrong thing? Does it make any sense to make logical arguments to an
omniscient perfect god?

The obvious question about Tefilla is why do we need to daven at all, after
all Hashem knows exactly what we need and is perfect, therefore what is the
point of tefilla? One approach is that Tefilla is for us to get closer to
Hashem, to change. However, that doesn't make much sense when your tefilla
is a set of logical arguments that God made a mistake. Another approach to
tefilla is that that is how Hashem made the system. Even though Hashem
doesn't need our tefillos he set up the system that to get things we need
to haven. Again, that doesn't really make sense when your tefilla is a set
of logical arguments as to why God is making a mistake.



How can logical/emotional arguments change an omniscient perfect God's
decision? The approaches to Tefilla that I am familiar with explain either
that Tefilla changes you the person davening and therefore the original
decision by God no longer relates to you as you are a different person. Or,
that the original decision was to grant you your wish on the condition that
you daven for it, but in no circumstances does Hashem change his mind.
Therefore, to make logical arguments to Hashem would seem to be pointless.