[Avodah] ceremony in halacha

Eli Turkel via Avodah avodah at lists.aishdas.org
Fri Sep 11 02:00:28 PDT 2015

<Neo-Chassidus is basically a MO rebellion to this kind of Halakhic
Man approach to Yahadus. >>

Please elaborate
BTW The Jewish Action had a recent article on the popularity of MO
I went to a wedding this week where the chatan learns in a yeshiva from
To my sight it looked like a Breslov Yeshiva. Big white kippot with extreme
The boys mostly has long peyot.
The Rosh Yeshiva/mesader kedushin  put on a tallit for the chuppa which I
had never seen.
He stressed that the chatan's tallit had techelet and he should make a
shecheyanu but
no bracha on the tallit since it was night, etc
However, this was a RZ wedding with a bracha for the soldiers etc.

On Thu, Sep 10, 2015 at 10:47 PM, Micha Berger <micha at aishdas.org> wrote:

> On Fri, Aug 21, 2015 at 12:02:01PM +0300, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
> : RHS following RYBS insists there is no such thing as ceremony in Judaism.
> : I am not sure I agree but in any case there are many things that appear
> as
> : ceremony to the average layman. Some examples include (inyama de-yoma)
> ...
> It's an intersting point, but relating it to RYBS's position just
> confuses the matter. You're using the word "ceremony" in nearly
> the opposite sense. And while you note that:
> : I again stress that I am using ceremony in the way that most peopleview
> it.
> : Of course RHS would counter that these are halachic constructs and not
> : ceremonies. This is true in the halachic view but not in the popular view
> This isnt' merely an answer, it's an indication that you're discussing
> two different topics. There is no question, just a miscommunication.
> Anyway, the contrast between the usages of the word "ceremony" interested
> me.
> You listed a number of cases where a halachic legality can be accomplished
> through something the lay-person considers meaningless ritual: pruzbul,
> mechiras chameitz, heter isqa, ha'aramos, etc..
> RYBS made that statement about ceremony in the sense of ritual in which
> the person finds meaning, but lacks halachic structure.
> The two examples that most readily leap to mind are (1) his disparaging
> kiruv that focuses on white tablecloths and shiny Shabbos candelabra,
> and (2) his modifying the minhagim of the Three Weeks and Nine Days
> because leshitaso, the minhagim must follow the same forms as ones found
> in hilkhos aveilus. I posted about this in Aug '08 at
> <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol25/v25n287.shtml#06>.
> I also noted in 2011 that RYBS's position that minhag must mirror halachic
> structure is in opposition to the Brisker Rav's (his uncle's) shitah. RYZS
> holds that one makes berakhos on minhagim that have a cheftzah shel
> mitzvah (eg lighting a Chanukah menorah in shul), and that the Rambam
> and Rabbeinu Tam don't argue about that. What they do argue about is
> whether Chatzi Hallel is close enough to Hallel to qualify for a berakhah.
> However, leshitas RYBS, there are no such minhagim that wouldn't require
> a berakhah. If Chatzi Hallel didn't require a berakhah because it's not
> close enough to the cheftzah shel mitzvah, it would be "ceremony", and not
> a valid minhag. He therefore would have to reject his uncle's chiddush.
> Neo-Chassidus is basically a MO rebellion to this kind of Halakhic
> Man approach to Yahadus.
> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha
> --
> Micha Berger             When a king dies, his power ends,
> micha at aishdas.org        but when a prophet dies, his influence is just
> http://www.aishdas.org   beginning.
> Fax: (270) 514-1507                    - Soren Kierkegaard

Eli Turkel
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