[Avodah] Chitzonios and Tereifos

[Michael Poppers via Avodah]

R'Micha noted:
> You omitted my kasuv hashelishi, insects in water that can be seen
by the naked eye in normal lighting, but you're drinking in the dark. <
I omitted the blown lightbulb because IMHO the level of required light is a
murky subject (poor attempt at humor :)).

> I am saying that reaching the inside of a cow lung is more like bringing
the cup of water over to the light than like checking with a magnifying
glass. <
And I am disagreeing: you need an external tool to reach that inside area.
Since you're pushing your "kasuv hashelishi", you also need to define what
level of light is "normal" -- surely you're not saying that a bug which can
only be 'seen' when the level of light exceeds *olam-hazeh* norms (e.g. the
lumen level exceeds that of the sun at its strongest) qualifies as visible?

> The bug in a dark room is something we are in principle capable of seeing,
the invisibility isn't a feature of the bug. Similarly, the problem inside
the lung is one an eye is capable of seeing, the invisibility isn't an
aspect of the deformity itself. In both cases, the cheftzah itself is
within the realm of human experience, at least in the right situation. <
I am noting the dissimilarity to help you understand that without
Superman's vision or an external tool to open a path to it, the inside of a
lung is not the same as a visible bug that is only visible under
this-worldly lighting conditions.

All the best from
*Michael Poppers* * Elizabeth, NJ, USA

On Thu, Sep 10, 2015 at 4:00 PM, Micha Berger <micha at aishdas.org> wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 10, 2015 at 11:46:32AM -0400, Michael Poppers wrote:
> : And with insects in water, the only difference is whether external
> : magnification is required -- the *tzad hashaveh* would be whether an
> : external tool is required in order to 'see' something.
>
> You omitted my kasuv hashelishi, insects in water that can be seen
> by the naked eye in normal lighting, but you're drinking in the dark.
>
> I am saying that reaching the inside of a cow lung is more like bringing
> the cup of water over to the light than like checking with a magnifying
> glass.
>
> To me that seems obvious. But to articulate it, I find myself going
> to words like cheftzah, which is a bit too technical to be appropriate
> language for relaying why I find it self-evident.
>
> The bug in a dark room is something we are in principle capable of seeing,
> the invisibility isn't a feature of the bug. Similarly, the problem inside
> the lung is one an eye is capable of seeing, the invisibility isn't an
> aspect of the deformity itself. In both cases, the cheftzah itself is
> within the realm of human experience, at least in the right situation.
>
> The magnifying glass compensates for the fact that water bears and
> other microscopic beasties are not in the realm of experience. We aren't
> getting the situation right, we are compensating for something with the
> cheftzah itself.
>
> To put it another way, maggot eggs do not have halachic existence.
> Do tiny crustaceans cease to exist and come back into existence if
> you flip the light off or on? (This is just different kind of appeal
> to cheftzah.)
>
> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha
>
> --
> Micha Berger             "And you shall love H' your G-d with your whole
> micha at aishdas.org        heart, your entire soul, and all you own."
> http://www.aishdas.org   Love is not two who look at each other,
> Fax: (270) 514-1507      It is two who look in the same direction.
>
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