[Avodah] RYBS's Talk on Hafkaas Kiddushin, Talmud Torah and Kabalas Ol Malchus

[via Avodah]

From: Chana Luntz via Avodah  <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>



>>  As I have written before, what I find intensely frustrating about this  
is
that RYBS's invocation of tan du appears to itself involve a form  of
tampering with the chazakos and by implication the denial of the  perfection
and truthfulness of chachmei chazal that is then claimed to be  kefira.

The gemora in discussing tan du is very clear - both in Yevamos  118b and
Kesuvos 75a: a woman in a tan du marriage commits adultery -  "kulan
mezanos"! - THAT is the chazaka from Chazal regarding the nature of  women. 

[snip]
But you can't get away from the fact that Chazal set  this up as a chazaka.
And if you take these chazakos in the way that RYBS  says to do, then there
are inevitable conclusions: A Beis Din faced with  what can now clearly be
seen as a tan du marriage HAS to assume adultery as  a consequence - that
being the chazaka. 
[snip] Surely it is  obligatory on any Rabbi who agrees to be
mesader kiddushin and on any  shadchanim and eidim to investigate very
carefully that this marriage is  not of the tan du nature?

[snip] But if it is an inevitable chazaka  that a woman in a tan du 
marriage will
commit adultery, then there is only  one safek in relation to a serious 
issur
d'orisa - in which case must it  not be the responsibility of all those who
enable such a marriage to occur  to make sure that it is not a tan du
marriage and they are not enabling  such adultery to take place?
 
>>>>>
 
There is brilliant yet convoluted logic behind this post.  I hesitate  to 
tangle with someone like R'n CL who is so erudite, yet I truly believe she  
has misunderstood this Gemara.  Yes, a woman in a loveless marriage is much  
more tempted to commit adultery, given the right set of circumstances, but  
it is certainly not inevitable. Nor is it correct to deduce that a rav must  
make sure, before he marries a couple, that the woman is not entering a 
loveless  marriage!  He doesn't have to creep into her heart and mind before  
conducting the wedding, doesn't have to fathom the depths of her motives in  
marrying this man.  There are so many motives, so many emotions, how could  
you ever fathom them all?
 
I think "kulan mezanos" refers to all women, and  it means all women  can 
be seduced, though obviously it will be easier to seduce a woman who does  
not love her husband. All women potentially can be seduced.  IIRC  Beruria the 
wife of R' Meir -- and you can't claim that was a "tan duu  marriage"! -- 
thought she was an exception to this rule about human nature, or  feminine 
nature.  And found out she was wrong!  Even she, a brilliant  and pious woman 
married to a great man, could be seduced.
 
Without the Gemara most of us would assume that men are more likely to be  
unfaithful than women, and I do think that is true.  I don't know how to  
square what we see before us -- that men cheat more than women do -- with what 
 the Gemara says.  In any case in Torah homes fidelity between husbands  
and wives is the norm, Baruch Hashem.  All those fences -- laws of  yichud, 
negiah, tznius and so on -- really do protect us.
 
 
 
--Toby Katz
t613k at aol.com
..
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