[Avodah] Fwd: Torat Chaim VeAhavat Chesed

[Micha Berger via Avodah]

On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at 01:30:46AM -0400, Ysoscher via Avodah wrote:
: R. Micha, you write "I think it's wrong to think the 7th principle
: applies to the Yad. While the Rambam may not have believed every word
: in the Moreh as it would seem to someone reading it naively, I do think
: "he fully and literally believed every word he wrote in the Yad."
: 
: This is pure conjecture, perhaps even wishful thinking. The Rambam
: shares the 7th principle in which he argues that one may disseminate
: untruths for the greater good of society....

Yes, but he says it in an introduction explaining a particular kind of
book -- which the Moreh is, and the Yad isn't. Whereas the Yad self-describes
as being Mishneh Torah, explanation, not obfuscation. So why look to
the intro to the Moreh to muddle what the Rambam himself says was the
point of the Yad?

In either case, the Rambam describes Yad and the Peirush haMishnayos
a explanations  written to be comprehensible to the masses. Moreh
2:35 (el-Qafih ["Kapach"]):

    Kevar bi'arti likhlal benei adam ... veheivesi ra'ayos al kakh
    ubirartav bePeirush haMishnah ubeMishneh Torah...

: You and I as Orthodox Jews would like to believe that he believed every
: word in the yad and that the stuff he says in the moreh, oftentimes
: contradicting Chazal and the mesorah, was only said for the greater
: good of society-he personally didn't believe them. The non-observant
: philosopher, on the other hand, would say the opposite, that in the
: Moreh he articulates what he really believed, not in the Yad.

Actually, I tend to side with the anti-Mamonidians. Mostly because his
model of redemption leaves people like my son Shuby (who has Downs)
wandering around the palace with no hope of getting in. (To paraphrase
3:51.)

: You then write "I am uncomfortably using the Rambam as a poster boy
: for rationalism."
: 
: I am using "rationalism" in a loose colloquial sense...

Which is so loose as to be meaningless. The Rambam predated science,
and followed the secular authority. Rationalism today refers to
emprical and other objective proof.

:                          That project, IMHO, failed. For every proof
: proving existence there's a proof to the contrary. That is precisely
: why I believe that the non-rationalist/Kabbalist approach is a better
: option. They offer an a-rationalist approach ("a-rational," not to be
: confused with "irrational," they're not the same). They believe because
: they chose to believe not-because they are "convinced."

Yeah, but so does the Gra's Qabbalah or Mussar.

Mussar in particular replaces the Rambam's akrasia based on knowlege /
wisdom, and therefore redemption through getting the right knowledge,
with talk of first-hand experience, emotions, subconscious, etc...

: You then write "...means accepting Chazal's historical and scientific
: claims as being from ruach haqodesh. And not stam as meshalim." implying
: that I believe that stories in Chazal or Torah are meshalim.
: 
: [Chas lei lezar'eih deAvraham deleimru hakha]; God forbid that I should
: make such a suggestion. I am saying something radically different.

Well, I wouldn't lump the two together. The Rambam is far from alone
in considering aggadic stories to be meshalim repeated with not concern
about historicity. Much like you wrote -- an authentic attitude toward
such things would be to not care about what really happened. Not to
assert they are or aren't historical. (Although the Rambam would tell
you to assume the wilder ones aren't historical, lest you make a joke
out of the Torah -- the first two of the three katim described in his
haqdamah to mishnah Cheileq.)

: We are making a huge mistake conflating facts with faith claims. A
: faith claim is a religious "belief" not a scientific claim...

Agreed. BUT... the kind of problem I thought you were trying to address
was the person who felt the Torah and academia conflict. To invoke
this dichotomy to resolve the issue would be to allow people to assert
ahistoricity, rather than avoiding a position altogether.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The true measure of a man
micha at aishdas.org        is how he treats someone
http://www.aishdas.org   who can do him absolutely no good.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   - Samuel Johnson