[Avodah] zilzul shabbat

[Micha Berger via Avodah]

On Fri, May 22, 2015 at 11:14:15AM +0300, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
:> True; but not putting a light on or off *has* been a defining feature
:> of the Shabbos experience since the mitzva of Shabbos was given, so
:> accomplishing it by any means might properly be considered a zilzul
:> Shabbos...

: In particular using an preset switch to turn lights and off should
: be prohibited.
: While RMF originally did object he later changed his mind when it became
: the norm.

Actually, RMF's primary argument was mar'is ayin, which would naturally
change as people know to blame lights turning on and off on "Shabbos
clocks".

: In fact even the kosher lamp might be prohibited

Well, I would think that fits the zilzul Shabbos argument bewing used
WRT the kosher switch.

: Can someone come up with a definition of zilzul shabbat?

The textbook case would be on Shabbos 6a: situating someone in a meqom
petur so that someone in a reshus hayachid can hand items to them so
that they could then hand it over to someone in a reshus harabim.
Rashi ad loc explains "demezalzel be'isurei Shabbos".

I think it's making a farce out of one of the issurim / chiyuvim of
Shabbos. Notice that the case Rashi attributes to zilzul would
otherwise be perfectly mutar.

: Is every modern way of doing any melacha that does not technically
: violate hilchot shabbat zilzul?

: The gemara allows using the sun for cooking on shabbat - why isn't that
: zilzul shabbat?

I think the problem is more than just avoiding the issur, but making
it trivial to entirely avoid it.

Which is what I had in mind when I distinguished between eiruv, which
is built into hotza'ah derabbanan, and community eruv, which takes
that idea and stretches it until someone can pretty much ignore the
whole topic of carmelis for years on end.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Strength does not come from winning. Your
micha at aishdas.org        struggles develop your strength When you go
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