[Avodah] missing years in Hebrew calendar

[Micha Berger via Avodah]

On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 01:38:51PM +0000, Kenneth Miller via Avodah wrote:
: I rarely, if ever, come across the word "conflate", except here on
: Avodah. When it is used here, it seems to be pejorative, indicating that
: someone confused or merged two things that really ought to stay distinct.

I think that's my doing; I like the word. And yeah, it is merging two
things that may be helpful in another context to keep distinct, but
without being as pejorative as saying they confused them.

If one assumes that Chazal's statements about the past are intended to
be about how the past should have happened rather than caring about
actual historicity, then their saying that Pinchas is Eliyahu is the
identification of what Pinechas means to us with what Eliyahu means, and
giving us a license to treat the two are a single symbol. With no intent
to imply they were historically the same very-long-lived human being.

I would also want a little more clarity from those who object to claims
about missing years between levels of objection. Do you mean:

1- This isn't my derekh.
2- I cannot see this even as eilu va'eilu, it's simply false.
3- It is heretical.

At least one of us used the latter language, and I don't see it. We have
a definition of heresy, three definitions of three subtypes of heres,
anyway (kofer, apiqreis, min).

Is anyone actually intending to claim that it violates an iqar emunah
to take Chazal's dating of events in the Galus Paras uMadai and early
Bayis Sheini period as ahistorical, meant for some hashkafic reason?

Or is it an epistomological thing? If you believe the academic community's
interpretation of the evidence and will create new peshatim to fit in this
case, you've bought into a system that would equally argue for kefirah?

And for the two people who dismiss the Greek version of Persian history:
What do you do with the astronomical state points thrown in that actually
work?

As RET noted last year, around Purim time, if you read Ezra and
Nechemiah literally, ignoring Sefer Olam, it is more consistent with
Greek historians than Chazal. I found he gave details in 1999 (v2n176)
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol02/v02n176.shtml>

To quote:

    ...
    proofs for the secular history
    1. external proofs
    A. The history of Herodotus (485-425 BCE) discusses in detail the
    lives of Cyrus, Cambyses,Darius and Xerxes and briefly Atraxerxes
    who was a contemporary of Herodutus.
    It is hard to conceive that he wrote about contedmporay figures or
    recent history who did not exist. Note that according to Chazal the
    Persians did not come into power until 350 BCE 75 years after the
    death of Herodutus !!!
    Thucydides (460-400 BCE) starts with Cyrus and goes through Darius
    II and the fights between Athens and Sparta and the Peloponnesian
    Wars. Again according to Seder Olam Rabbah there was no time for
    all these wars and so probably many of these Athenian and Spartan
    leaders did not exist.
    Ctesias (430-380) was a physician in the court of Artaxerxes and
    describes the 7 kings from Cyrus through Artaxerxes II.
    There are also later Greek historians who give the complete picture.
    Josephus also includes more kings than Chazal but not the entire
    Greek list. Moderchai Breuer in his history accepts the Greek dating.
    See Parker&Dubberstein, Babylonian Chronology for more details.

    Note: No modern historian claims that all facts in these histories
    are true. That is a far cry from stating that the entire history and
    not just certain details are fabrications and that all these kings
    never existed.

    B. Archaological evidence has uncovered many ancient Persian
    (cuneform) enscriptions (see for example The Persian Empire by
    J.M. Cook). For example one at the Persian palace in Persepolis says
    "I, Artaxerxes the son of Artaxerxes the son of Darius the son of
    Artaxerxes the son of Xerxes the son of Darius the son of Hystaspes"
    (Darius was not the son of Cambyses). Greek names have used for the
    original Persian names. There are other earlier enscriptions which
    are similar. These all conform to the Greek dating.

    C. There are letters from the Jewish community in Elephantine
    confirming the Greek position.

    D. I recently read of the history of the Assyrians. In their history
    they describe the reign of Sancherub and of a major eclipse of the
    sun during some battle. Astronomical calaculations confirm that the
    only full eclipse of the sun in that region occurred exactly during
    the dates of Sancherub according to the Greek chronology.

    2. Internal Proofs

    A. Ezra 45,7 describes Koresh, Daryavesh, Achasverosh, Artachasta.
    These exactly parallel the Greek chronology with Achasversh=Xerxes.
    If one looks at the Persian writing rather than the Greek names
    then Xerxes is called khshayarsha which is close to Achashverosh
    (note Cambyses is left out probably because nothing of importance
    to Ezra occured during that reign).
    Note that Daat Mikrah on Ezra 4 assumes the secular dates.

    B. Nehemia 12:10 lists 6 High Priests, son after son, between
    Yehosua and Yadua. This is hard to explain if the whole period was
    on 52 years. It is even worse if one assumes that Shimon haTzaddik
    was the high Priest at the time of Alexander as that adds at least
    one more high Priest in the 52 years According to Ben Sira Shimon
    was the son of Johanan which would make of total of at least 8 high
    priests in 52 years all presumably sons of the previous one.

    C. Comparing Divrei Hayaim I: 3:19-24 with Ezra 8:2 and Nehemia 3:29
    it seems that Ezra and Nehemis lived many years after Zerubbavel.

    Note: Daniel 11:2 seems more in line with chronology of Chazal.

    Second Note: According to Seder Olam Purim occured before the
    rebuilding of the second Temple while according to the secular
    chronology Achashverosh was the son of Darius and so the Temple was
    already in existence. According to Chazal, Daniel, Zerubavel, Ezra,
    Nehemia, Mordecai, Hagai, Zerchahiah and Malachi and even Shimon
    haTzaddik were basically contemporaries or within 1 to 2 generations
    of each other.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 37th day, which is
micha at aishdas.org        5 weeks and 2 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Gevurah sheb'Yesod: When does reliability
Fax: (270) 514-1507               require one to be strict with another?