[Avodah] RYBS's Talk on Hafkaas Kiddushin, Talmud Torah and Kabalas Ol Malchus Shamayim

[Micha Berger via Avodah]

On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 12:05:17PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
[RAM:]
: >                         At any rate, one can agree or disagree about
: > whether this assertion is true, and even among those who agree with
: > it, there might be discussion of exactly which chazakos are unchanging
: > and which are variable. Still, his point is that there are indeed some
: > UNchanging aspects.

: I would add an observation that individual exceptions may exist
: empirically but are ignored halachically

This is the classic case of affirming a chazaqah (or rov) when there
is ika rei'usa. No?

On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 12:58:34PM +0100, Chana Luntz via Avodah wrote:
: The gemora in discussing tan du is very clear - both in Yevamos 118b and
: Kesuvos 75a: a woman in a tan du marriage commits adultery - "kulan
: mezanos"! - THAT is the chazaka from Chazal regarding the nature of women.
: 
: Now this could mean:  (a) the sort of woman who is prepared to enter a tan
: du marriage is prepared to and will commit adultery; or
: 			    (b) all women will take a tan du marriage
: (RYBS), but if they find themselves in a tan du marriage - the existential
: loneliness that RYBS identifies as being the particular province of women
: will also, according to Chazal, inevitably drive them to adultery;

: But you can't get away from the fact that Chazal set this up as a chazaka.

As the gemara was taught to me, what they set up as a chazaqah was
pretty much as RYBS describes it. Women feel the loneliness of singlehood
more.

The flow of the sugya in the two gemaras are quite similar, from the
point where Reish Laqish is quoted staying "tav lemeisiv" onward. RL,
illustrated with meshalim by Abayei, R' Papa, and R' Ashi, followed by
a tana saying that they all are mezanos and then blame their husbands.

So, it would seem that tav lemeisiv is about a desire to be married.
This has nothing to do with romance or eros, since we are told that a
woman who is just married so s not to be like a widow (milemeisiv
armelu) do tend to end up cheating.

But tav lemeisiv isn't about the affairs, it's about (Yevamos) why
hamezakeh gett le'ishto in the middle is not valid. Because it's not
a pure zekhus for her, you cannot say zakhin le'adam shelo befanav
(or befanehah, as the case may be). There is nothing about "being driven
to" adultery by the loneliness, but by having tav lemeisiv alone
satisfied by her marriage. Perhaps the reverse of your formulation.

(I think the idea that tav lemeisiv means women are more likely
to be sexually lonely would be really hard to support, even in a
culture where husbands, not wives, have a chiyuv onah.)

Or (Kesuvos) it is used (in a complex case I'm too lazy to spell out)
why a man might wish not to be married, lest he later be prohibited to
her relatives, but in the flipside case, we do not assume the same of
the woman.

The bit about mezanos vetolos beba'aleihen is not the basis for any
halakhos. I have no reason to believe it's a chazaqah.

Tangentially...
On Mon, Apr 13, 2015 at 07:27:43PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
: Another challenge is how to deal with recent "Chachmei Hamesorah"
: who don't seem to meet the perfection definition.

I have two suggestions that work for me:

1- Make a list of current chakhmei hamesorah that don't pose such a
   challenge for you. Once you start, you'll likely find it's a longwer
   list than you had thought.

   Focus on them, and ignore the rest, no matter how popular as gedolim
   they may be.

2- Separate the current rabbinate from one's own ties to the mesorah
   with a project like <http://www.aishdas.org/asp/my-mesorah>

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 24th day, which is
micha at aishdas.org        3 weeks and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Tifferes sheb'Netzach: When does domination or
Fax: (270) 514-1507        taking control result in balance and harmony?
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 24th day, which is
micha at aishdas.org        3 weeks and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Tifferes sheb'Netzach: When does domination or
Fax: (270) 514-1507        taking control result in balance and harmony?