[Avodah] [Areivim] 100% Vegetable oils etc. (Walker Crisps)

[Zev Sero via Avodah]

On Areivim, Kaganoff wrote:
> Zev Sero wrote:
>> Kaganoff wrote:
>>> Zev Sero wrote:
>>>> Kaganoff wrote:

>>>>> I would be rather surprised if there was a genuine kashrus concern
>>>>> from with the Walker Crisps from any meat contamination.
>>>>> Any meat would be batel.

>>>> It's flavouring.

>>> We hold of bittul b'shishim.

>> Only as a general assumption that at that dilution it can't be tasted.
>> Not applicable to concentrated flavourings which are designed to be tasted
>> at high dilution.

> That is a chumrah that you could adopt, but should not force on others.

Why do you call it a chumra?  Do you deny that the din is about ta`am, not
percentage, and bitul beshishim is merely a general assumption that at that
level of dilution there is no ta`am?



>>> And it's a not a flavoring for this particular product. So it is not
>>> avida l'ta'amei, even at less than 60.

>> Since when does the fact that it wasn't intended to be in this product make it
>> not intended for its taste?


> That is why companies spend thousands of dollars perfecting formulas
> for what is and is not used in a product. If it is not used as an
> ingredient, then it was not meant to flavor this product.

Once again, so what?  Where did you get this idea that it matters whether it
was intended to be in this product?

Perhaps you're thinking of nosen ta'am lifgam, and saying that even a
pleasant flavour, if it was not intended to be in a particular dish, may be
considered a pegam in that dish.  But that doesn't work.  Suppose a chef created
a dish flavoured with lard, but made a mistake; he put in too much, or too little,
or didn't cook it long enough, or cooked it too long, or at the wrong temperature,
and the final flavour of the dish isn't what he was aiming for.  It's pleasant,
and the diners eat it up and compliment him, but he knows that it wasn't meant to
taste like that, and his recipe needs work. Can you imagine calling that dish
pagum, and allowing it to be eaten?!  That's obviously not tenable.   So how is
this case any different?   A pleasant and desirable flavour has made its way into
a product that wasn't intended to have that flavour.  Does that make it pagum?!!
No.  It's a good product, it's just not the product that's on the label.    The
product that's on the label is kosher, but the product that's inside the packet
is treif, exactly as if a labelling error had occurred.




>>>>> Stam Keilim Ain ben Yomo.

>>>> Are you joking?  That klal is clearly not true in any commercial setting.

>>> Why do you assume that it is clearly not true. Or rather you are
>>> assuming that in a majority of cases, meat is used the same day as
>>> the kosher product. That strikes me as a bit extreme.

>> It's not at all extreme.  Everyone knows that commercial equipment is almost
>> *never* idle for 24 hours at a time.  And since the meat flavouring is a
>> regular product it stands to reason that it's processed every day.

> Do you know this for a fact about this particular plant? Otherwise,
> it's an assumption that you can make, as per Chazal.

Everyone knows that it's true about *all* commercial equipment.  And we have
no right to "assume" something we know not to be true.  Stam keilim einom
bnei yomam is simply not a valid rule in the context of commercial equipment
today.


>> In any case, the issue here isn't keilim, since the flavouring is cold, and
>> sprayed on cold chips.  If it were keilim then there would be no bittul
>> beshishim, since stam keilim are more than 1/60 of their contents.   No,
>> the issue here is the residue of actual flavouring that remains in the
>> equipment after the meat flavours are run, until it is cleaned.

> Which again would be batel within the first few products of the new run.

It might be, if we knew the order in which the flavours are run.  But they
refuse to disclose that information.   What we do know is that the plain
chips are run first, so they're acceptable.  After that all bets are off.
There is no way to be sure that the packet of non-meat-flavoured chips
you are eating was not the first one off the rank immediately after a meat run.


>>>>> It's not Avida L'Ta'amei, etc.

>>>> It's precisely avida letaama -- it's a flavouring!

-- 
Zev Sero               I have a right to stand on my own defence, if you
zev at sero.name          intend to commit felony...if a robber meets me in
                        the street and commands me to surrender my purse,
                        I have a right to kill him without asking questions
                                               -- John Adams