[Avodah] [Areivim] kol isha

[Micha Berger via Avodah]

On Thu, Apr 30, 2015 at 5:54pm EDT, R Sholom Simon replied to me on Areivim
:> The fact that some ... Jews seem to think the gemara
:> didn't realy mean it is something the ... community should have a
:> cheshbon hanfesh about. 

: Gemara? Don't the ge'onim take the gemara to
: mean that kol isha is a problem during krias sh'ema? (Which is, after
: all, the context of its appearance in Berachos). 

: (Granted, halacha has
: gone much further since then, but you were focused on the gemara) 

You're thinking of Berakhos 24a, where the gemara concludes that R'
Yitchaq's tefach be'ishah ervah is to even include one's own wife during
qeri'as Shama. (We knew about other women not during qeri'as shema from R'
Sheishes.) And then R' Chisda continues with shoq be'ishah, Shemu'el
says qol be'ishah ervah and R Sheishes adds sei'ar be'ishah.

>From which one may conclude that all of them are in the same context
as R' Yitchaq.

R' Hai Gaon (Otar haGeonim Berakhos, peirushin #102), R Yehudai
Gaon (acc. to the Yeriem 392), the Behag (1:3). the Eshkol (vol 1,
pg 15), the Rivra (Berakhos ad loc) and his father (?), Rabbeinu
Yonah (17a), the Shitah meQubetzes (ad loc), only speak of this
rule WRT qeri'as shema.

Interestlingly, one might also have concluded that all of them were
about eishes ish, for the same reason that sei'ar be'ishah is only
about eishes ish, but I don't think anyone does understand the gemara
that way.

But there is also Qiddushin 70a, where R' Yehudah refuses to relay
regards from R Nachman to Yala (Mrs Nachman) citing Shemu'el's qol
be'ishah ervah.

It was this gemara I was remembering (due to recently re-encountering
it).

Pisqei haRid (Berakhos p' 3), Ri haChasid (Berakhos ad loc), Tosafos
haRosh (ad loc) and the Rosh (Berakhos 3:37), say the rule is in
general.

The Rambam has qol be'ishah ervah in Isurei Bi'ah (21:2), not Hil'
QS. Similarly the Tur has nothing about it in QS, but has it in EhE 21.
(But then, since his father [the Rosh] and the Rambam do the same,
that's no surprise.)

And from there -- the Rif is silent, the Rambam and the Rosh agree
it's in general -- the SA conforms to his rules and prohibits in
general.

I think it's a machloqes whether we hold like Shemu'el, who was
indeed oly talking about Shema (but not only married women) or
like R' Yehudah's extrapolation from Shemu'el.

Al pi din, we do hold like the gemara in Qidushin.

But it's not as much of a given as I had thought when writing.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 27th day, which is
micha at aishdas.org        3 weeks and 6 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Yesod sheb'Netzach: When does domination or
Fax: (270) 514-1507               taking control result in relationship?