[Avodah] Fwd: A Different Approach to Sheidim

[Micha Berger]

On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 04:48:34PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
>>> >Which mishnah in chapter 4?  I've skimmed through the PHM for the whole
>>> >chapter and didn't find any discussion of sheidim.

>> 4:7. There is a list of falsehoods that AZ embraced, and sheidim is
>> on it.
>
> That is about those who assign powers to the stars, to their various
> configuations, and to particular angles they form with other stars, etc.
> The only reference to sheidim I can find is an aside about "the people
> from whom Avraham Avinu distanced himself and disputed [...] they were
> the ones who established the laws of the stars, and the magics, and the
> incantations, and the summoning of spirits, and the conversations with
> stars and sheidim and the Ov and Nachash and Yid`oni in all their kinds,
> and necromancy, and many of these things against which the True Torah
> drew its sword and cut off, which are the roots of AZ and its branches."

1- But is is "a discussion of sheidim".

2- I take it you're reading as "speaking to stars and sheidim" were one
item.  But I don't think you're parsing it correctly. I believe it is:
    They are the ones who established
	- the laws of the stars
	- kishuf
	- spells
	- calling down spirits
	- speaking to stars
	- sheidim
	- qesem
	- divination in all their many kinds
	- demanding of the dad
	- and many of those things against which the Torah...

(I left kishuf and qesem untranslated, because distinguishing between
them is a topic in itself. And one I don't claim to know.)

It would seem the Gra understood the Rambam as I wrote (YD 179:13), in a
commend on se'if 6, where the SA talks about nekhishah not working at all,
but still being mutar on Shabbos:

    The Rambam, and this is what is written in Peirush haMishnah to
    ch.4 of Aku"M. But all who came after him disagreed with him, for
    many lachashim are talking about in the gemara. And he was pulled
    after the accursed philosophy, and therefore wrote that keshafim,
    shaimos, lachashim, sheidim and kemei'os -- it's all sheqer. ...

> Now he's certainly not saying that stars don't exist, or that dead
> people don't exist, and probably not even that spirits don't exist, so
> why assume he's saying that sheidim don't exist?

He is saying that astrology isn't real, communion with the dead is
impossible, the stars have no power for you to appeal to, and sheidim
and magic don't exist.

Gut Voch!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Life isn't about finding yourself
micha at aishdas.org        Life is about creating yourself.
http://www.aishdas.org                - Bernard Shaw
Fax: (270) 514-1507
>
> Now he's certainly not saying that stars don't exist, or that dead
> people don't exist, and probably not even that spirits don't exist, so
> why assume he's saying that sheidim don't exist?
>
> -- 
> Zev Sero               A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
> zev at sero.name          substantial reason' why he should be permitted to
>                        exercise his rights. The right's existence is all
>                        the reason he needs.
>                            - Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan
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>

Gut Voch!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Life isn't about finding yourself
micha at aishdas.org        Life is about creating yourself.
http://www.aishdas.org                - Bernard Shaw
Fax: (270) 514-1507